Another newbie backdating thread (sorry!)

[popngear]

Alright so before I get lambasted for not searching (which I have, extensively) I wanted to first apologize for creating another backdating thread. That said, this is my first post/thread after lurking for a few months and I was hoping to get the advice of some fellow car fanatics.

I have been tinkering with the idea here and there of restoring an older vehicle for the last little while. My current stable of cars is basically all modern and I am looking to have at least one classic vehicle which wouldn't need to serve as more than a fairweather weekend warrior. A few spirited mountain passes and cruising down the coast is all I'm looking for out of the car.

Like many others, I am in love with the idea of having a clean, classic era Porsche but am not looking to deal with more than the occasional headache, hence the appeal of a backdate - relatively modern reliability with the classic aesthetics of the original air cooled 911. After going through almost the entirety of the ultimate backdating thread as well as many others, I feel like I have a good idea of what the project would cost me. However, at this point I've been a bit overloaded with information and am definitely feeling overwhelmed. This is where I was hoping you guys could help and provide some sound advice. My question is, is there an ideal model year that would be the easiest to backdate for my needs? To re-iterate I am looking for:

-pre-crash bumper aesthetics with chrome accents
-relatively modern reliability would be appreciated (I've read that the 80s SC is quite reliable)

From the research I've done so far, I feel like a mid-late 80s up to 88 911SC or Carerra would fit the bill. I've ball parked the cost of the project including the car to be anywhere from 40-50k and taking a newbie like me at least 3 years. So Pelican members, what do you think?

edit: I should add that I don't have much mechanical experience but I am willing to to do the research and take my time to learn. My experience is limited to oil changes, fiddling with interior trims/etc., and swapping out brake pads. I absolutely love cars - the way they look, the way they sound, and mostly the way they drive. I figured it's about time I learned to love the way they work

[popngear]

Merry Christmas!

[TRE Cup]

Sent you a pm

[Rodsrsr]

Welcome to the forum. I think that a late Carrera (88-89) would be a very solid platform. You'd get the 3.2 with a G50 (this is huge) with the classic 911 looks. Very easy to backdate. An even better candidate might be the 964 which would give you the same G50 coupled to the 3.6 (this is more huge ) coil over suspension, modern a/c and heat. It might be a little more work to backdate but it would be a very cool modern reliable car. I believe there was a thread on this a while back.

[Arne2]

Your budget sounds reasonable, even if you can't do some of the work yourself. You should be able to buy a mechanically solid and sorted SC or 3.2 Carrera for $12-18k if you look at higher mileage cars that have a few cosmetic needs, which won't matter for this project. While a later G50 car would be great, don't overlook the '78-86 cars with the 915 transmissions. They will be cheaper to buy and can shift just fine with a few aftermarket additions.

I'm considering doing the same with my '84 in a couple of years. As soon as I finish a few other tasks on it (notably A/C re-work), I'll start gathering the parts I'll need to backdate.

[Craig T]

Don't be embarrassed to start this thread. Depending on the level of detail and authenticity you desire, backdating can be a HUGE undertaking and this forum will be a valuable resource to you. WELCOME!

I did extensive research before starting my project ("My Backdating Hot Rod Project is Underway"). My best advice...Know what you want from the finished project before you start. Identifying the end goal and sticking to the plan is the best approach. You don't want to pay to do and then pay to undo anything.

Each era of mid-year donor has it's advantages and disadvantages. If you're looking for a lightweight hot rod, then an earlier car (74-75) is easier to keep the weight down, but with the older lightweight tubs come rust. You have to be patient and find a good one. Also, putting high performance suspension into a pre-Carrera donor is expensive. Aftermarket T-bars, turbo tie rod ends, bump steer, adj sway bars, etc, etc, will cost you at least $5,000.

If you plan to put some juice in the motor, and want an early car sound, you need to consider the smog rules in your state. In CA horsepower is best put into a pre-75 car...and 74-75 cars are cheap ($6K for mine with motor and trans). Of course the newer the car, the better the technology, but smog can be a royal PITA if you don't leave the powertrain completely stock.

The SC and Carrera are obvious choices, and the 3.0 or 3.2 are great motors, but the smog rules apply in most states. That means no headers, no carbs, no big cam or head work, etc. The SC and Carrera cars are also getting expensive now, and likely to keep going up. Not the best thing to chop-up right now.

The 964 is heavy, but has a 3.6, twin plug, ECU, coil-over suspension, modern shifting tranny, and many are completely rust free. Plus, 964 are still relatively inexpensive (cheap for what you get). If passing smog and being super light are not a concern of yours, I'd jump right up to the 964.

I'm always available if you want to learn from my mistakes. You can PM me anytime.

This...



To this...

[G450X]

I'm currently gathering parts to convert my '82 SC. To avoid huge costs, I'd suggest trying to source good used parts when possible to keep the cost of the conversion reasonable. My SC is an original fairly high mile (165k miles) coupe which I drive an enjoy while I hunt down parts for an engine and transmission rebuild (and backdate parts).

The biggest expense seems to be the front fenders. Check the backdate threads, but I think the cheapest route is to add the turn signal boxes to your original fenders. I really want original fenders, but at near $2k used and near $3.0k new, I may go the add on the ts box route.

If you find one for sale, the cheapest route may be to find a nice conversion that someone has completed and wants to sell. They probably spent more money on the build than they could recover. I think the used backdate market is somewhat limited - most people seem to want to perform their own conversion and add the vintage cues that they prefer. I want a '73 Carrera RS tribute with a few cues from an early 911R and S.

Good luck, a well done backdate is a nice way to keep a "real 911," yet customize it the way you want. A post '78 911 conversion is probably a good route due to the galvanized chassis with larger fender flares, more robust aluminum engine case and transmission, and other updates.

Remember the expense of good paint and mechanicals - decent paint will probably cost at least as much as a top end rebuild and a 911 engine rebuild is expensive (same with the 915 transmission). If you run across a rebuilt 911 that has some miles, don't turn it away - it will probably be more cost effective if you want a nice driver and are not concerned with resale value.

[Arne2]

Originally Posted by G450X

The biggest expense seems to be the front fenders. Check the backdate threads, but I think the cheapest route is to add the turn signal boxes to your original fenders. I really want original fenders, but at near $2k used and near $3.0k new, I may go the add on the ts box route.

That's my take on it as well. I don't want to use fiberglass fenders on a street car that will be (is now) driven regularly. Steel fenders are expensive. But unfortunately, no one seems to think much of the fiberglass lightbox extensions. I do wish there were decent steel (weld-on) lightbox extensions available. I know that TRE was said to be working on this, but I haven't seen any reports on this in some time.

And Craig, I've already learned a lot from your car's build thread. Great work there. I won't go anywhere near that far on mine, will be much closer to the job that techweenie did on his former red '85. Not looking to replicate/clone/tribute any particular year or car - just want the basic long-hood look.

[Craig T]

Good condition early fenders, and doors, are very expensive. I ended up using one real early fender and one mid-year fender. Esposito welded on the indicator box from a rusty early one. You can't tell the difference once painted and undercoated.

I would not shy away from cutting the blinker boxes out of some cheap rusty early fenders and welding them into cheap mid-year fenders. It's not a difficult job for a good body/restoration shop.

[Arne2]

That's an option I'll go with if I can, Craig. The possibility of finding rust-damaged early fenders is one reason I'm watching for parts now, even though I'm probably 1 to 2 years away from really starting.

[popngear]

Is the body work involved significantly any different between say an 81SC, 87 carrera, or a 964? There is a local 81SC for sale asking 14k that I was thinking may fit the bill. I don't want to jump the gun on anything but I haven't seen many around that price.

The reason I also asked about an 87 is because it is the newest year I can get without having to deal with smog in WA. And, the 964 of course is the newest I could backdate with period.

[KNS]

So many cars up 'till 1989 have been back-dated that you can even find many parts out there already to help in the process (TRE for example).

The 964s are certainly do-able but a bit more complicated.

[popngear]

Speaking of which, this is the actual for sale ad of the aforementioned car:

81 Porsche 911 SC Coupe

[ej911]

What about using carbon or fiberglass front fenders. The head of Bugatti Design has his 81SC with carbon fenders. His car has carbon bumpers, both lids, doors and carbon front fenders.

[TRE Cup]

its expensive to do a 964 correctly
sent you a pm

[popngear]

TRE Cup, I sent you a PM earlier with my email.

Thanks

[Jayboundless]

If changing so many parts really diminishes the originality of the vehicle. Why not go for a clean bodied 912 and do a motor swap? Are the suspension parts too costly?

[Rodsrsr]

Originally Posted by Jayboundless

If changing so many parts really diminishes the originality of the vehicle. Why not go for a clean bodied 912 and do a motor swap? Are the suspension parts too costly?

That's exactly what I did. I figured that I was going to heavily modify the car anyway and would be upgrading suspension and brakes regardless. The tub I found happened to be a very clean rust free Ca 912, so that's what i used for my turbo 3.2 930 look car.

[Arne2]

Originally Posted by Jayboundless

If changing so many parts really diminishes the originality of the vehicle. Why not go for a clean bodied 912 and do a motor swap? Are the suspension parts too costly?

a.) I already have an '84 coupe.
b.) Why molest a real long-hood, even "just" a 912?
c.) Real long-hoods generally need a lot more body repair (aka, rust) than later cars.

There are more reasons, but these will suffice.

[mreid]

I found an 86 with 133k for $12k a couple of months ago. I can't be a lot of help on the build as I am only taking mine back to 74. I just prefer the look of the 74 IROC RSR. It's an added bonus that the conversion is easier. Here's my target:



The 81 in the ad looks nice, but you really need a good look at its particulars. Plus, can you really do a long hood on a sunroof coupe? The deals are out there, but try Autotrader vs. ebay. I ran a comparison on prices vs. condition ebay to autotrader and at the time autotrader was trending 10-15% cheaper.