Appraise this modified Carrera

[GeorgeM]

Okay folks, here’s an exercise in determining what modifications are worth and how they affect the value of a car.

How much do you think this one’s worth:

1989 Carrera Sunroof coupe – meticulously maintained
Original Forest Green Metallic (front re-sprayed)
Tan partial leather Interior (excellent cond)
Front and rear factory spoilers (rear tail plus factory drilled decklid added on, have original deck lid)
125,000 miles (I’m the 3rd owner), excellent compression Replaced Clutch and fuel lines (15K ago)
Records since ’94 (earlier records available at dealer), superb records since ’98
20 Drivers Ed track events (all short shifts, no redlines)
The following mods:
Brakes:
Rebuilt calipers (8K ago), new rotors (15K ago)
Cool brake kit (using fog light openings)
New 19mm master cylinder (10K ago)
Suspension:
Cambermeister front strut brace
Koni Sport adjustable shocks
Weltmeister suspension bushings
21mm front/29mm rear Sway-Away torsion bars
Turbo tie rods
Lowered ride height
7 and 8 x16 Fuchs in superb condition
Safety:
OG Racing rollbar (with custom rear interior panels-original panels saved)
Engine:
Performance chip
Cat bypass pipe
Modified stock muffler
Mocal front oil cooler in series with fender unit
mounted behind a custom made front valence
(made out of 2 used valences, have original valence
with fog lights)

All mods with the exception of the suspension work can be easily reversed, even the roll bar (and the stock muffler too). I excluded items like racing seats and 5 point harnesses, which can
be part of the haggling should the buyer desire.

It's a great driving car in super shape for the mileage, but it is a driver. There are some rock chips and the normal wear and tear. The car is super reliable and has been very well maintained. The mods have been tastefully executed in an attempt to retain the stock look and quality.

[ChrisBennet]

20 Drivers Ed track events (all short shifts, no redlines)

That statement seems hard to believe.
-Chris

[carnut169]

Good looking car.... $27ish?

[dickster]

looks like the colour of mine-"moss green"? are they two different colours?

imho, you don't put any value on the car over and above what a well maintained std car would be worth.

in fact if the mods are not reversable with std parts kept it may be worth less

but i don't care, i aint selling

i'd say for yours around £14K

i like what you've done.

['77]

Crap... since when is redline beyond the acceptable limits of these cars? Even if I believed it, I wouldn't want a car that was always shifted below 4K. Perhaps Wayne should sell a yellowline decal for those conservative shifters?

Someone wanting a car with those mods will pay a slightly higher price, but your average joe is just wanting a bone stock car to dump endless cash into themselves. Or is that just me? Crap.

[GeorgeM]

Who said anything about 4000 RPM?

I make every effort to shift shy of the redline. I have too many friends that have blown motors by revving past the redline or using every bit of that extra RPM that their chip gave them. DE is just a hobby for me, not a competition. If I lose a few tenths to short shifting, I'll take that. It's cheaper than a rebuild.

[glickster]

I think the higher value of your car is as a DE car or potential club racer.

I would value the car at $23.5 - $25.5k, assuming that the valve guides aren't about gone. If the engine is in need of a rebuild anytime soon, I'd knock $4-5K off of the asking price.

Seems like a nice car. Rare color. I like the fact that you've retained the stock look.

[Wayne 962]

'77 with all due respect, you're not really talking the truth here. The Carreras (and Turbos and 3.6s) have a rod-bolt problem that is not too widely publicized. Repeated high-RPM driving can loosen up the rod bolts and make them fail. I have a picture of destruction of a 3.6 because of this problem.

Track and DE use are a negative in a buyer's mind. Most buyers are looking for little old lady drivers who keep the car perfectly cherry. However, the racing mods that you have done are good, because they don't detract from the daily driver ability of the car (maybe only the roll cage).

To the right buyer, your car would probably be worth about $21K-22K without the mods, and probably about $5K more with everything installed. However, you'd have to find a buyer looking for exactly what you have.

As opposed to the silver 911 Carrera that was in a previous post, your car will require a more selective and specific buyer. Hence, it may take longer to sell it at your target price...

-Wayne

['77]

The Carreras (and Turbos and 3.6s) have a rod-bolt problem that is not too widely publicized. Repeated high-RPM driving can loosen up the rod bolts and make them fail. I have a picture of destruction of a 3.6 because of this problem.

What is the recommended maximum RPM for these cars if one was worried about this problem? Is it just shy of redline or quite a bit lower?

[ZAMIRZ]

I'm sure the feature in European Car's Reader's Rides section adds at least $1,000 to the value

later,

amir

[speeder]

It's a nice car, I like it. I like the less common colors, so that is a plus for me, but actually not general resale. (Black and red seem to be the best for easy sale).

I do not think that you would have any problem selling this car for fair market value, whatever that is. Wayne is right, though, track use does not exactly increase resale value. Biggest money is for cars that are closest to new, don't care if it is a Porsche or a Hyundai.

All of these threads with people putting numbers on other's cars, usually optimistic hoping that their own similar cars are worth a lot, is driving me a little nuts. Just once I'd like to see a response, "I'm in the market for that car. I'll give you 'X amount' for it right now, pending a PPI." Hasn't happened yet, so this is all theoretical to me, my .02.

[GeorgeM]

Thanks for your inputs thusfar. I guess I shouldn't have included that comment about staying off the redline, although it is true.

I can't afford a rebuild on my gov't paycheck, so max fun with preservation in mind is the goal here.

Perhaps thinking of the 20 DE events along the entire lifespan of the car will make it seem not so bad. The car is pushing 13 years old. Is 20 DE events over 13 years so bad?

I didn't intend to start a heated discussion on these issues, not to mention an affront to my honesty.

Jeez, I just wanted to see what you guys thought the car was worth. Every other car presented for appraisal has been basically stock, I was just shooting for something different.

BTW, nice catch on the European Car Personals, Amir. The wife's car will be for sale by the end of the year. Anybody in the market for a nice '93 VW Corrado SLC? That one has no track time. I don't think my wife has redlined it recently, but I may have at one time or another.

[Milu]

It was my understanding that the rod bolt problem typically occurred on cars that had had the rev limiter removed or adjusted upwards with a chip change. Can anyone technical confirm/refute?

[Wayne 962]

The truth is that there is no scientific cut-off on the rev-limit - only evidence of the problem from destroyed engines. No telling what the rev-limit would be, except that running up in the upper range all the time certainly can't help.

Here's an excerpt from my new book. I've also posted this before on the BBS:

Rod Bolts – Carrera (1984-89) & 911 Turbo (1978-89)

In 1984, with the release of the 3.2L engine, Porsche reduced the size of the rod bolts used inside the engine to 9mm from the 10mm used on previous engines. Using the rods from the 1978-89 911 Turbo 3.3L engine in conjunction with the Turbo crankshaft increased the displacement to 3.2L. Unfortunately, it has been recently discovered that the rod bolt diameter is too small for the large loads that these engines place on the rods. A number of failures in the 911 Carrera motor have been traced back to the rod bolts failing to adequately maintain their proper tightness.

The failure occurs when the engine is consistently revved at the high end of its RPM range. The stock rod bolts are designed to stretch when tightened down to their final torque values. At RPMs of 6700 or higher, the rotating mass on the end of each rod (namely the piston and the mass of the rod itself) has a tendency to stretch the rod bolt further. Repeated stretching of the rod bolts causes them to deform and loosen up which can result in rod separation and complete engine failure.

While all engines for all years need to have their rod bolts replaced during a rebuild, the remedy for these particular engines is to install aftermarket performance rod bolts in the rods. Quality hardware from Race-Ware or ARP are two very good substitutes for the original rod bolts. In the meantime, if you have a stock 3.2L engine, one remedy is to make sure that you do not rev the engine over a safe range like 6300 rpm. This risk of failure applies to both the 911 Turbo engines, and the 3.2L Carrera engines.


-Wayne

[Bob Chapman]

OMG! George! I've damaged my engine! Too many times to redline before learning the sound of the engine. Once hard onto rev-limiter in 2nd gear when distracted by jumbled pavement, several to 6300 in 3rd on 2-lane road pass .. too much fun to pass up! I've backed off to 6000-rpm upshifts now.

Killed a lot of grasshoppers, and other very large insects, today! Drove down to Bremond looking for BBQ lunch. Stayed on secondary roads, settled for Coca Cola and Grandma's oatmeal cookies in Lott. Teenager from 18-wheeler with grandfather(?) took pictures of it, said "I love Porsches!"

Between Troy and Moody ended up on gravel roads -- check shadows, turn north, turn west ...

Got home, put it in garage, postflight showed front valence COVERED in bug juice. Not good! Pushed it out, scrubbed off the nose, and put it away. After dinner, gave her a total bath and rubdown.

To sum up, she's worth every penny of the exorbitant amount I paid for her.

[Bob Chapman]

PS

[Mike the mechanic]

I have read, I don't remember where, that the max allowable rpm for a 3.2 should be 7000, with the stock rod bolts. Supposedly, 7200 is the breaking point.

Mike
86 Carrera t

[stuartj]

GeorgeM
Lovely looking car.

Where did you get the brake ducting kit using the fog light holes, and does it duct into the eye of the disk, or just onto the disk surface?

stuart 87 carrera

[GeorgeM]

Nice work Bob. A little bug juice never hurt anyone.

Thanks Stuart. The brake cooling setup is the kit from OG Racing. It's very similar to the AJ-USA kit, but made of fiberglass. I just removed the A-arm scoops and ran longer hoses to the fog light openings. I misspoke in my description (which I have edited), the custom valence is made of a used Carrera valence and an SC valence so it has the fog light openings.

The ducts are BSR bumper ducts I got from I/O Port Racing. I had to trim them a bit to get them to fit in the fog light holes, but they work pretty well. The brackets for the fog lights have to be cut and moved/bent out of the way. On the right side is a twin duct that has one outlet with no hose, it just provides more air to the stock oil cooler in the fender, the other outlet via hose to the brake. It's tight in there behind the valence, so the outlet tube with no hose had to be shortened. The left side is a single outlet to the brake. Each duct is just attached to the valence from the front with two small bolts (I painted the heads green and they're barely visible). There's 1/4 inch protective screen sandwiched between the duct and back of the valence and held by the two bolts.

The custom valence, which makes the necessary space (barely)for the Mocal cooler, does provide a lot more room for the brake ducting. However, I did have the same setup with a stock valence before I got the extra oil cooler, so it is workable without the extra space.

Sorry I can't send photos. They wouldn't let me bring my car with me out on the ship. There are too many obstacles on the flight deck for an autox course anyway. Hmm, maybe the hangar deck...