Early or late model air-cooled 911?

[JohnPalmer]

I am looking forward to purchasing my first 911 to be used as a daily driver. I have always liked the first generation 911 , but I live in the northeast, and I am concerned about rust on an ungalvanized body. The alternative for me would be to purchase a 993. I understand that from a reliability perspective, a newer car is likely to be easier, but my concern is long-term corrosion. If you live in the northeast, should an early 911 be a good weather only car? Many thanks for your views.

[darrin]

I believe that all 911s since the sc (1978-on) had galvanized bodies. I've been using my '86 targa as a daily driver (with winter snows) for the past 15 years, the first 5 in the DC area -- no rust yet

[dw1]

When looking at any car as a DD, one has to take age into account.

No matter how well built and well maintained, parts that are old wear out just due to environmental exposure to moisture, sunlight, atmospheric oxygen, temperature variation, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I really like my '87 3.2, but I don't think I would ever rely on it as my DD unless I had another car I could use when the 26 year-old car was awaiting parts and/or awaiting my wrench.

Btw, the factory a/c on the older cars was not at all effective, and prone to not functioning at all. The northeast gets pretty hot & humid in the summer (I'm in NJ).

[Az911]

Originally Posted by dw1

When looking at any car as a DD, one has to take age into account.

No matter how well built and well maintained, parts that are old wear out just due to environmental exposure to moisture, sunlight, atmospheric oxygen, temperature variation, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I really like my '87 3.2, but I don't think I would ever rely on it as my DD unless I had another car I could use when the 26 year-old car was awaiting parts and/or awaiting my wrench.

Btw, the factory a/c on the older cars was not at all effective, and prone to not functioning at all. The northeast gets pretty hot & humid in the summer (I'm in NJ).

I daily drove my 88 for years and never had an issue with reliability. You just have to keep up with maintenance and replace parts before they get to old.

[Tippy]

You're just lucky. C3.2's will sometimes get a quirk in the EFI that is virtually unsolvable without throwing a bunch of parts at the problem using a shotgun approach.

[wacko]

My opinion is you will be able to do more of the maintenance yourself with an earlier car like an Sc as opposed to a 993 with more computers

[JohnPalmer]

Many thanks to all. I look forward to finding the right car.

[tonythetarga]

I think if you keep the car clean and underbody wash it at a touchless carwash during the winter, this will help. The galvanized bodies started in 1976 with the 2.7 SC engine. You should read Waynes purchase guide on the main Porsche page in the Tech Articles. It points out strengths and weaknesses in each rendition of the 911. If a/c is important to you for summer driving, then a 964 or 993 would be better. The classic 911 look lasted through the 964 era up to 1994 and the movable tail on the C2's and 4's is replacable with the RS America style tail that gives it back that classic look.
The post 86 cars have a G50 transmission with a hydraulic clutch and shift somewhat better than the early 915 trans. Read up, ask questions and keep searching. The season approaches.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/911/technical_specs/911_guthrie_faq.htm

[darrin]

Originally Posted by Tippy

You're just lucky. C3.2's will sometimes get a quirk in the EFI that is virtually unsolvable without throwing a bunch of parts at the problem using a shotgun approach.

Tippy -- I followed the issues you were having and, while they appeared to be Motronic-related, they seemed to have been compounded by the fact that you had heavily modified your system to work with your turbo induction system and therefore lacked many of the baselines inherent in a stock 3.2 carrera.

I've found that with a normal motronic system, it's relatively easy and straightforward to diagnose the culprit when issues arise. At a minimum, I'd challenge that getting a motronic-based carrera dialed in is no more difficult than getting a cis-based SC dialed in.

[JohnPalmer]

Thanks to all for the good advice. I am now leaning towards a 964 or a 993.

[wrinkledpants]

I would skip the 964. I would start my search at 84 with the intro of better HVAC (footwell blowers and larger side vents) and the 3.2. I know the motors pump out plenty of eat with the engine RPMS up, but it's burning hot and it would be nice to get more flow without the high temps, and to have more steady heat when idling or in the city. For winter driving, I would further refine my search to an 87-89 with a G50 gearbox. With the right oil, they seem to shift better in the winter. You still get all the nostalgia of the early cars, but with a few updates that make a good bit of difference. Otherwise - the 993 variants are great, too. There seems to be a lot of electrical gremlins with the 964 (at least in the earlier years), so if you're flush enough, I'd keep my search to the late 80s Carreras and the 993's.

Both the late 80s and 993s are very reliable. That doesn't mean they're cheap to maintain or don't require a lot of attention, but with the right attention, they won't leave you stranded. For me - the biggest difference between the these two cars is the driver aids. No airbags, no ABS, no traction control - very simple systems on the Carreras compared to the 993. So - I'd let be the deciding factor on whether or not you want a 993 or Carrera.

[OttoB]

John, as you may have already discovered, opinions here are aplenty and no one individual's is more important than the other. Case in point - someone above dismissing the 964 for no other reason than preference, when in fact, the 964 would make an excellent DD, more so than a 3.2 carrera for various reasons, such as: ABS, airbags, functioning a/c, 3.6l engine, improved transmission, etc. Plus, if you purchase a C4 either in 964 or 993 guise, there is simply no comparison to an (outdated?) 3.2 for year-round driving and safety up in the northeast... My best advice is to simply drive the best examples of each that match your budget and then decide. Good luck!

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by darrin

Tippy -- I followed the issues you were having and, while they appeared to be Motronic-related, they seemed to have been compounded by the fact that you had heavily modified your system to work with your turbo induction system and therefore lacked many of the baselines inherent in a stock 3.2 carrera.

I've found that with a normal motronic system, it's relatively easy and straightforward to diagnose the culprit when issues arise. At a minimum, I'd challenge that getting a motronic-based carrera dialed in is no more difficult than getting a cis-based SC dialed in.

To add to Darrin's point: The phrase, "throwing a bunch of parts at the problem using a shotgun approach" points out one of the repair trends that frustrates me to no end and drops my jaw at the same time. The 3.2 Carrera engine management system is FAR from "quirky" and is so basic that there is nothing that is, "virtually unsolvable".

These cars are close to bomb proof. Yes, parts will fail on them just like any car, but there isn't much of anything that can't be tested. Wiring harnesses and vacuum leaks are the big frustrating bits as they aren't so much a "testable component". When someone starts throwing parts at an issue they are not acting as a "mechanic". They are reduced to being a "parts replacer".
So in review:
- Replacing parts until the issue goes away = Bad
- Testing components until you find one out of spec = Good

If the simple 3.2 Motronic system is driving you nuts get a copy of the "911 Carrera DME Test Plan"...

-----
To get back to the original post:
There isn't another car out there that can be used as hard as a 911 that will just keep running and running. I really like the 89 and earlier cars because of the very 'hands on' feel for what is happening. You don't so much as 'drive it' as you 'wear it'. And at the same time it is the easiest car to get into and drive for 3-4 hours straight.

I have been leaning hard on the abilities of automobiles hard for decades. Constantly studying how to get the most out of them and how to get the most out of me. The 911 has taught me more with its endless ability to communicate with the driver in endlessly greater detail.

(I really do like the G50 trans that was introduced in 87...)

[cjannelli]

I'v been fortunate to own several 356s, a 912, 73,5 911T, 83SC, and currently drive a 87 Carrera.
My favorite driver was the 911T, but it's use was restricted severely due to weather(live in the PNW).
I use my 87 probably 80% of the time. It's remarkable that a car this old is actually very refined, has reasonable creature comforts and performs very well. As said above, you've got to maintain them. I also do not abuse mine, no track time etc. Having said that, a solid SC or Carrera could be driven daily if properly cared for. I have no experience w/ the 964/993 cars, but personally I would consider a 964 if it was well sorted. The 964 C4 four wheel drive system would be a concern(very complex if what I've read is true). If you're prudent and find a solid and meticulously cared for example, then continue that level of care, you will be very happy!
Best,
Chris

[MrBonus]

I love my car but this seems like an exercise in masochism. These cars are old and unless you have patience for the issues that arise with old cars (brittle aging fuel, oil, and brake lines, alternators, rust, suspension wear, air conditioning/heat issues, DME, old fuel pumps, oil leaks/consumption), you will eventually find frustration in having a 24+ year old car as a daily driver.

While I have no problem taking the time to troubleshoot my car when I have a few free hours and a cold beer on a Saturday afternoon, I wouldn't want to have to do it at 6:30AM when I'm on my way to the office to meet a client, especially in the northeast where we don't have the nicest weather through the winter months.

Just my two cents.

[darrin]

Wrinkledpants sums it up nicely and I echo his sentiments. The lack of Driver Aids is a big part of what makes me smile when I drive my '86 targa. Paradoxically, the longer I've used it as a DD (around 6k per year), the fewer the issues I've had with it, and it's been surprisingly reliable. I'd include '86 with the 87-89.

My 915 transmission (the predecessor to the g-50 used from 87 on) hasn't been rebuilt and is still shifting fine @ 153k miles, after my then-mechanic in Fairfax, VA dialed in the couplers 15 years ago. I did have the notorious carrera valve guide issue (burned a quart of oil every 700 miles) and had my engine out for a top end rebuild and fuel line replacement at 85k miles, but have been relatively trouble-free since then. My mechanics' 30k mile services have also frequently included replacement of aging components (brake lines, clutch helper springs, cam tower oil lines, etc.) to address known issues/potential issues.

Although I've used all season tires in the distant past, I'd consider snow tires a must for the northeast -- dedicated wheels for the snows are nice too. My carrera handles great in the snow/ice we get here in Denver, I'm much more concerned with the abilities of the idiots around me than my carrera's competence in the snow/ice and my nokian wr-g2 winter tires have a suprisingly nice grip/ride when it's dry out. My heater system's footwell blowers put out a VERY nice amount of heat (and I'm loving the seat heaters I had retrofitted when I recently had my seats recovered).

An '86 has the same upgraded AC vents as the later carreras, and all would be candidates for the AC improvements sold by kuehl that would (I understand) give the early carreras a usable cooling system (My commute and climate allow me to do quite well without AC and I haven't recharged mine in 12 years), but my factory AC was pretty mediocre when charged back in the DC area).

While a 3.6 (964 or 993) is quicker than a carrera (frustrating when a v6 accord caught me off guard last month...), I love the versatility of my 3.2, from the low end torque to the rush of power @ 4k rpm.

All that said, my wife drives an '84 vw touareg v8 -- and we love each and every one of its Driver Aids. While my carrera is surprisingly good for grabbing groceries and transporting our 50 lb dog around for hikes, etc., I don't think it would work for me as an only car, but it reliably gets me to work/airport/etc. on a daily basis.

Food 4 thought