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Brando
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Two underbelly ac condensers
I had been loOKing for a while for the underbelly condenser that performance air made years back but is no longer available.
I Got one a couple months ago and yesterday got possession of another! Tell me your opinions of running both one after the other? Or should I just use the one? I'd like to avoid if I can the rear condenser. WWest need not apply for comment, I know it would be nice to use a pressure switch for a fan which I also don't have planned yet. So your comments are not needed. This setup will not be great while not moving along, but I don't very often get caught in traffic on my commute so I'm almost OK with that. I just want to have comfortable driving road trips with my wife long distance in summer. I would add another bigger front condenser with fan front mount style if I wanted or needed with an accompanying open front bumper similar to ruf or rsr. Two is better than one eh?
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Turbo powa! 1977 911s. it's cool |
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06-12-2013, 04:05 PM
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without airflow over the condenser, the compressor will seize. and those things bottom out on everything.
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06-12-2013, 04:22 PM
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Don't know the answer to the question of running two of them. I have one like yours that serves as the third condenser after deck lid and a left rear wheelwell condensers. I would be concerned about it being mounted almost horizontal -- maybe a little nose down like all 911s. I read something recently that 134 condensers cannot be mounted horizontally -- don't remember exactly why, but I noted it at the time. My first two condensers are mounted generally vertically with inputs at the bottom and outputs at the top. In your case, if the belly condenser is the first condenser the gas path sees, it will be mounted horizontally, which -- if my memory is correct -- is not a good idea.
Of course, in the "standard" two-condenser setup, the forward condenser is mounted horizontally, but it is NOT the first condenser in the gas path after the compressor. Jeez, I hope I remember my reading about horizontally-mounted 134 condensers correctly .... By the way, PerformanceAire mounted the fittings with the input on the right side (facing aft) and the output on the right (facing forward.) In my setup, I moved the right side fitting to the left side (facing aft). Gave up only one cooling tube so did not sacrifice much, but eliminated one hose in the right side -- where it would not really fit with the two oil cooler pipes and the one large return AC hose already there. Brian Edit: My belly condenser has been mounted for 26 years and 180,000 miles and has never bottomed out. 1980 911SC at standard suspension height. Last edited by Brian K. Haggard; 06-12-2013 at 04:27 PM.. |
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06-12-2013, 04:24 PM
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The singular primary, major, shortcoming of our Porsche A/C system is lack of refrigerant condensing efficiency except at good road speed or consistently elevated engine revs. TEN belly condensors will be of no help. AIRFLOW...! |
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06-12-2013, 05:04 PM
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06-12-2013, 05:09 PM
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Well, your question could be read in 3 ways, run the belly pans in series, run them in parallel, or just use 1 of them. If you really really really only only only wanted to use the belly pan concept, you would run them in series, however its tough to mount 2 of those Armadillo Killers under the tub, and John is right about them crashing sooner or later; and then you have the issue that they absorb radiant road heat and radiate heat through the bottom of the tub. They were the 'best thing since pop tops on beer cans' years back, but there are other solutions. What ever you do don't overcharge the system. |
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06-12-2013, 06:13 PM
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Location: The Wet Side
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Asking him not to is ineffective, because he has no manners to begin with. To answer your question, see John Walker's post. Since the airflow over the condenser elements is nearly zero, the condenser is ineffective *at best*. Reducing ground clearance doesn't help anything either. Fender-mounted condensers of the type that GTI sells is the answer to more condensing capability. |
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06-12-2013, 06:17 PM
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06-12-2013, 06:47 PM
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Yeah, we all "mind" it when edit inside some ones post when you quote,
and when you change fonts and colors. It makes it difficult to read, LIKE WHEN SOMEONE WRITES IN ALL CAPS, that's like old school html flash, blink You must be an old buzzard. |
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06-12-2013, 06:53 PM
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Yes, OLD, 73...
ALL CAPS..Like back in the TWX days, using a 33asr teletype... |
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06-12-2013, 07:28 PM
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This forum really needs an ignore feature. Preferably just for wwest.
I'd never seen an underbelly condenser setup until I bought my car. It wasn't hooked up when I bought it and I haven't used it at all yet, so this is not offered as an endorsement of any kind...just thought it might help to see some installed pictures. If I wasn't doing a surprise engine rebuild, I'd have already ordered Kuehl's stuff FWIW. Budgetary restrictions might mean now that I'll try to get it working with this condenser for a year or two while I save for the good stuff. Here you can see the very thick fins. My only guess here is that this was intentional to help defray damage from road debris. Can't be good for efficiency! You can also see it didn't make it immune to damage...numerous bent fins and scrapes, I can attest that the condenser scraped numerous times on my journey home with the car. The car was really severely lowered (beyond euro specs), however.  Here you can see the one line going 'in' to the condenser and how mine is one full-width unit.     Here you can see the 'out' line going to the receive/drier in the wheel well. (IIRC)  You can see on my setup that if it was another 4-5 inches toward the rear of the car, there is a 'step down' in the floor plan that would mean even LESS ground clearance. Not a great idea IMO, though I don't know how much 'length' you're dealing with (in terms of front-to-rear of the car).
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1982 911 SC - 3.2, 17" 993 wheels, 993 interior, big red brakes. 1966 Corvair Sedan - 16" Superlight wheels, LED taillights, Euro H4 headlights. |
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06-12-2013, 07:40 PM
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Up in the upper left of the forum, along the header, there's a link: User CP. Click on that. The left hand panel titled Your Control Panel, go down to Settings and Options. At the bottom of that is Edit/Ignore List. Click on that and follow the directions. I did, and now I only read what other people quote. And what gets quoted is dumb enough - the rest must be positively idiotic. |
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06-12-2013, 07:47 PM
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06-12-2013, 07:48 PM
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Brando
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Well I don't have as much space in front for a 964 style condenser because there is an oil cooler there now. But I still have space in front and behind of the drivers rear wheel like others have used.
So, in the opinion of those who know(NOT WWEST) I might be better off selling these and buying or making a set of fan cooled units in the fender? Obviously the fender units would be better for traffic anyway.
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Turbo powa! 1977 911s. it's cool |
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06-13-2013, 11:31 AM
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Is it okay if I not only agree but would whole-heartedly suggest...? Would most definitely be better, BEST off. But only ONE fender mounted condensor/fan assembly might well do the trick provided the factory components are in good operating condition and the new fan only comes on after the condensor temperature/pressure rises to the optimal heat transfer level. Last edited by wwest; 06-13-2013 at 11:39 AM.. |
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06-13-2013, 11:35 AM
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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Of all the cars I've ever owned, the car with the (by far) best performing and coldest a/c was my old '79 930 (sold) with an underbelly condenser.
You cold not run the thing full speed - even during summer, in San Antonio, in stop and go traffic. It was so cold it would "burn" my leg. My wife wouldn't ride in it without a sweater/jacket. Only other mod (that I knew of) was a sanden compressor and fan for the small condenser over the engine. Yet, all I've ever heard is how bad this set-up is... ???
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06-13-2013, 11:50 AM
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Id think youd be better off selling and getting a fender unit for all the reasons mentioned.. airflow, positioning, efficiency, clearance...
Kuehl dual fenders will provide the best performance, but if your budget is smaller, ZIMS has a great fender unit that has a pretty good fan, sits in front of the wheel so you dont pick up extra exhaust heat and its only $500. Its about the size of a carerra oil cooler. Probably not as well built as the Kuehl. and the hose is hokey. I actually didnt use the one that came with it but had one made at a local hose shop. It works fine though and keeps my engine bay cooler. (9 oclock instead of 10 clock). Its been in use 3 years with no issues. Quote:
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83 SC Targa -- 3.2SS, GT2-108 Dougherty Cams, 9.5:1 JE Pistons, Supertec Studs, PMO ITB's, MS2 EFI, SSI's, Recurved Dizzy, MSD, Backdated Dansk Sport Stainless 2 in 1 out, Elephant Polybronze, Turbo Tie Rods, Bilstein HD's, Hollow 21-27 TBs, Optima Redtop 34R, Griffiths-ZIMS AC, Seine Shifter, Elephant Racing Oil Cooling. |
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06-13-2013, 11:52 AM
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Brando
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Here is my plan. Front condenser mounted like front mount oil cooler style and fan/fans, belly condenser, maybe a fender condenser with fan, and thats it. Stock evaporator, denso compressor, hi/lo switch and new hoses. My vents are as follows. 964 side vents mod, stock center vent, possible under kuel style center bow tie style vent later on if needed. My truck(gmc) has constant vent temps of 40 degrees which is cold. If I can approach that with half the airflow of that truck I'm fine seriously. I don't need 30's degree vent temps. Even 45 degrees would be fine compared to nothing. I don't expect the most amazing vent temps and I'm not going to break any records. Just want to make life comfortable for me and anyone riding alongside.
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Turbo powa! 1977 911s. it's cool Last edited by quattrorunner; 06-13-2013 at 12:46 PM.. Reason: spelling |
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06-13-2013, 12:46 PM
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Sounds good. I think vent temps are abit overrated. Its only part of the story. So you may need a high output Evap fan with your setup.
I think that what makes you uncomfortable isnt just temp of air blowing out the vent although that is one indicator or performance. equally important is the overall temps in all areas a heat sink environment. like the back seat of your car. My experience is that I had 37 degree vent temps but if the car has been in the sun its still woefully uncomfortable in the back seat and my face is cold while my back is sweating and i can feel the heat radiating off the rear seats with the stock evap fan.. This is where the changing to an Evap Fan that blows more volume is effective. Now I can turn down the temp control, but have more volume, and I am actually more comfortable. I could live with 47 degree vent temps if the back seat was as cool as the front seat. So I think the only thing id consider adding is one of the high output evap fans so that you get more cold air into the back seat area. This air volume issue is real. You can try it the way you have it. You wont need to open the system to swap the fan but you may need to add more volume at Las Vegas temps. Quote:
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83 SC Targa -- 3.2SS, GT2-108 Dougherty Cams, 9.5:1 JE Pistons, Supertec Studs, PMO ITB's, MS2 EFI, SSI's, Recurved Dizzy, MSD, Backdated Dansk Sport Stainless 2 in 1 out, Elephant Polybronze, Turbo Tie Rods, Bilstein HD's, Hollow 21-27 TBs, Optima Redtop 34R, Griffiths-ZIMS AC, Seine Shifter, Elephant Racing Oil Cooling. |
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06-13-2013, 12:55 PM
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Those underbelly are stout pieces and the large surface area must really be effective.
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1973 911S (since new) RS MFI specs 1991 C2 Turbo |
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06-14-2013, 12:06 PM
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hoonkraft
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