Does It Matter?: Lug Nut Weight

[maxman]

My stock black lug nut are scratched to heck. Somebody (I can't imagine who) has been using impact tools on them.

I found a set of aftermarket black lug nuts on ebay, that look just like the stock ones, for $46.

The stock ones are super lightweight. The ones I'm buying are plated steel, and thus going to be a couple ounces heaver.

So, I'm adding more spinning weight. Does it mater? Is the performance impact even worth considering?

[rusnak]

I would not buy lugnuts on eBay.

[rusnak]

And you should really purchase a good pro quality torque wrench. Hopefully you have not damaged your hubs.

[maxman]

I have a good Torque wrench. I just use impact for removing.

The ebay ones are brand new. Figured I'd order them up and check our the quality.

Just trying to figure out if the weight matters.

[tazzieman]

It would matter to me. Going cheap on these performance cars is not so wise.

e.g. 944Online Forum - Print Page

there are several reasons Porsche used alloy nuts and not steel

the nuts used are forged alloy and light as a feather

usually the guys suggesting out the change have little or no knowledge how good these really are. AND, surprise , surprise, they also just so happen to sell new ones.

The bad thing about steel lugs is two fold. Actually 3 fold. The racer crowd is quite familiar with the last one I list below:

a) they are heavier, not much , but enough that Porsche chose a forged alloy aluminum.

b) the steel lugs ARE a dissimilar metal where the moisture and the mating surfaces relate to each other: the cup area of the wheel and the ball area of the fastner. So actually you are transferring the area exposed to salt, water, and oxygen ---moving from the dry and sealed in area of the stud and thread areas to the seat of the locking fastener. So, IS THIS a good idea ?

c) the steel lug fastners can have a profound wear characteristic to the mating surface. Folks who compete with Fuchs on their 911's have found stress cracks and wear to that mating surface from repeated track use.

What would you rather replace ? A set of lugs for under 50 a wheel or a Fuchs wheel for 400-1200 a pop ?

The old penny wise pound foolish?

[pyite20v]

Get some from EASY in Emeryville. I got 10 for $20 and they were in pretty good shape. Not new, but definitely pretty nice.

These super nice lugnuts is one of the things I love about this car.

[maxman]

Originally Posted by tazzieman

It would matter to me. Going cheap on these performance cars is not so wise.

e.g. 944Online Forum - Print Page


The old penny wise pound foolish?

Thanks!

I'm still not sure the weight matters, but the dissimilar metals and wear to Fuchs are valid concerns.

Any thoughts on power coating or painting the factory ones? Their finish is not great.

[James Brown]

if your doing any racing or DE events, you need open steel wheel lug nuts

[tazzieman]

Originally Posted by maxman

Thanks!

I'm still not sure the weight matters, but the dissimilar metals and wear to Fuchs are valid concerns.

Any thoughts on power coating or painting the factory ones? Their finish is not great.

Mine were a bit scuffed ; I just sanded them off over sandpaper on a flat bench. Etch primer then satin black. It's hard to keep them perfect even with soft sockets. If you home paint , allow to dry for at least 24 hours .

[maxman]

No racing for me.

But, interesting that steel is required for racing...

[tazzieman]

Originally Posted by maxman

No racing for me.

But, interesting that steel is required for racing...

It's so you can see the lugs are tightened properly, the blind ended ones you wouldn't know.

See , open ended + aluminium! Gorilla Automotive 44027BK Open End Aluminum Racing Lug Nuts (12mm x 1.25" - Black Thread Size) : Amazon.com : Automotive

[theiceman]

Originally Posted by James Brown

if your doing any racing or DE events, you need open steel wheel lug nuts

de requires you to change your stock lug nuts ? i dont think so !!! .....

[IROC]

Originally Posted by maxman

Just trying to figure out if the weight matters.

I say no, the weight doesn't matter. It increases your unsprung mass slightly (but only a small percentage of the total tire/wheel/hub/etc weight) and the rotational inertia impact is very small as the lug nuts are located relatively close to the center of rotation.

You'd be better off shopping for tires that weigh less.

[blowsupgoats]

ehh... nuts are nuts. Porsche made'em the way they did for a reason, and that's good enough for me.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by tazzieman

It's so you can see the lugs are tightened properly, the blind ended ones you wouldn't know.

See , open ended + aluminium! Gorilla Automotive 44027BK Open End Aluminum Racing Lug Nuts (12mm x 1.25" - Black Thread Size) : Amazon.com : Automotive

DON'T USE THESE! Mating surface is not the same as factory! Will ruin wheel, and probably dangerous.

Correct OEM steel nuts are only $2 each from our host: Pelican Parts - Product Information: N-020-112-1-M58

If you go with the 'Ebay' nuts, make sure the round part against the wheel is a proper fit. I've seen the wrong lugnuts ruin a set of wheels.

[mnez]

I've used open steel nuts for years with Fuchs for track running, with no ill effects. The PCA.org tech guys advised me to only tighten them to 90 ft-lbs, versus 96 for alloy nuts. The mating surfce of the Fuchs is not damaged.
The weight is not a concern. Just make sure you get the right ones.
The rest of the automotive world used steel nuts on alloy wheels, so don't worry about it.

[KTL]

I agree the steel lugs have been used for decades without epidemic proportions of problems. The cracking is typically age & fatigue related. Some of these wheels are very old (Fuchs started showing up on Porsches in the 60's for crying out loud!) and have seen a lot of hard use. Nothing lasts forever.

Also, IMO the key to keeping your lug seats free of damage is to apply a swipe of antiseize on the seating surface. It's especially important with the alloy lugs. Its not uncommon for an alloy lug to seize on the stud and have to be hole-sawed off the stud.

I agree the weight is not a huge concern since there's other areas you can save unsprung weight. But still, any little bit of rotational mass, even centrally located, makes a difference in the work the engine has to do. Lighter CV axles, wheels, tires, brake rotors, axle hubs flywheel, clutch, clutch disc, crank & rods, pistons all add up to making a difference. But for a street car I totally agree the lugs are inconsequential.

Lastly, take a look at these lug nuts and read the seat size designation Porsche vs. VW/Audi . You have to click on one of the lug nut type and then read the "Detailed Description" tab. There are R13mm and R14mm radius for the ball seat

Results for Ball Seat Nuts:Porsche

14mm Porsche Steel Lug Nuts

Track Studs does a nice job of pointing out the difference between M14 spherical seats. All VW are not necessarily the same/interchange with the Porsche seat shape!

[Curt_B]

The aluminum lug nuts are manufactured for Porsche by a company named BIMECC in Italy. Part number DPORSCHE01. The best price I can find is here Tulip City Wheels: Lug Nuts,Hubcentric Rings,Hubcaps,Wheel Accessories. Or, you can pay over $200 at Otis in LA.
Be careful of powder coated lug nuts. Wheel Techniques (do NOT use them) powder coated mine when I had my 912 wheels done by them. They came back so heavily coated that the standard (17mm?) lug wrench would not fit over them. I used an over sized lug wrench and wound up ruining them.
Protect Your lug nuts by using a thin piece of plastic, such as a plastic grocery bag (if you can still find any in California), between the lug wrench and the lug nut. My present source is the dog s--t bags from the park in Mtn. View.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by mnez

I've used open steel nuts for years with Fuchs for track running, with no ill effects. The PCA.org tech guys advised me to only tighten them to 90 ft-lbs, versus 96 for alloy nuts. The mating surfce of the Fuchs is not damaged.
The weight is not a concern. Just make sure you get the right ones.
The rest of the automotive world used steel nuts on alloy wheels, so don't worry about it.

If you use antiseize between the seat and the nut, then the potential for galvanic corrosion is very much minimized.

But yes, I've been running Audis for decades on steel lug bolts and aluminum wheels. I've never had a single problem with any of them.

[Arne2]

Originally Posted by maxman

I have a good Torque wrench. I just use impact for removing.

I use a breaker bar and remove by hand, on all my cars, with steel or aluminum nuts/bolts. Why hammer on them? They come off easy enough.