I want real A/C on my 87 3.2 - please share your upgraded system installs & reviews

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by DCinVA

Gosh guys.

Lets stop the pissing contest.

I think everyone following these AC threads has judged the value of your opinions.

Please stop.

I think we all have respect for your knowledge and opinions, suggest you both show a little respect for each other, and the readers of this forum.

I would jump in and offer my opinion on the posters question, but no one would read it because of all the bickering going on.

If you have new information to settle the squabbles, then please bring it. Otherwise, these threads will continue to go in this direction because one of the parties gets enjoyment from the presentation of false and misleading information. Each time the information is presented, it must be refuted, or else someone out there might actually believe the false info.

Wishing for peace is great. Working for it takes effort.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by wrinkledpants

Why do you ignore me every.single.time I ask for you to test your kit.

Because he enjoys busting Griff's b@lls. He enjoys the attention.

[RSTarga]

I have both an early car with dealer installed A/C front and rear condensers; and a 91 964.
The early car achieves much lower vent temps,( easily 10 degrees less) than the 964 yet the 964 has much better cooling. The biggest difference is the amount of air the 964 moves, more and bigger vents, a higher capacity twin fan evaporator is the ticket more than a single high speed fan blowing through smaller vents.
I'm pretty sure the Kuehl system with 4 condensors has way more square inches of condensing capacity than my 964. I think his systems work well but they would really benefit from more air volume, but for that all the ventilation plumbing would have to be upgraded.
The one question I have for Mr. Kuehl is why he does not offer a large underbody condensor as an alternative to his rear wheel kits. I have been in cars with the underbelly condensors and they work VERY well. There used to be a company in California who sold these kits, but no longer do so.
I initially thought they were more prone to damage but the ones I have seen seem to survive quite well.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by RSTarga

I have both an early car with dealer installed A/C front and rear condensers; and a 91 964.
The early car achieves much lower vent temps,( easily 10 degrees less) than the 964 yet the 964 has much better cooling. The biggest difference is the amount of air the 964 moves, more and bigger vents, a higher capacity twin fan evaporator is the ticket more than a single high speed fan blowing through smaller vents.
I'm pretty sure the Kuehl system with 4 condensors has way more square inches of condensing capacity than my 964. I think his systems work well but they would really benefit from more air volume, but for that all the ventilation plumbing would have to be upgraded.
The one question I have for Mr. Kuehl is why he does not offer a large underbody condensor as an alternative to his rear wheel kits. I have been in cars with the underbelly condensors and they work VERY well. There used to be a company in California who sold these kits, but no longer do so.
I initially thought they were more prone to damage but the ones I have seen seem to survive quite well.

Underbody, belly, condensors are almost totally non-functional except underway at a reasonably high roadspeed. Think of the front lip condensor, radiently heated from a HOT roadbed surface, and NO convection airflow path.

It is a given that the major shortcoming of our A/C system is the shortage of refrigerant cooling efficiency would not in motion, so simply adding the underbody conndensor is of no help.

That, and being subject to damage via roadway debris, is probably why they might no longer be available.

[RSTarga]

Theoretically that is what I thought, but their size makes up for the lack of airflow and they seem to survive as the examples I've seen have been on the road for years.

[wrinkledpants]

You never answered my question - that setup you linked is that the same you you have? He showed his data, and it seems to work. So, if that's what you have - I'll stop busting your balls. But, you can't really claim that it's just a few fans. He had is tail heavily modified, and that's usually beyond what some folks are willing to do. I've never heard you mention a giant condenser and modified tail, before.

[wrinkledpants]

Originally Posted by RSTarga

Theoretically that is what I thought, but their size makes up for the lack of airflow and they seem to survive as the examples I've seen have been on the road for years.

200k on my car with track days - and it's the original condenser. My car is lower than euro, too.

[wildthing]

I've read this thread with interest. I also have an 88 3.2 with stock A/C components (I think). I see that many of you did the whole thing all at once. My question is, is it possible to do this piecemeal? Like for example, drier replacement first. Or front and rear condenser replacement first. Then hoses and evaporator later...

I ask because I didn't want to spend for all of it at once, and those two items (driers and condensers) seem to be relatively easy drop-in replacement jobs. Thanks in advance!

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by wildthing

I've read this thread with interest. I also have an 88 3.2 with stock A/C components (I think). I see that many of you did the whole thing all at once. My question is, is it possible to do this piecemeal? Like for example, drier replacement first. Or front and rear condenser replacement first. Then hoses and evaporator later...

I ask because I didn't want to spend for all of it at once, and those two items (driers and condensers) seem to be relatively easy drop-in replacement jobs. Thanks in advance!

OK, #1: Don't listen to anything wwest has to say. Just about EVERYTHING he says is contradictory to industry standard AND what automotive AC experts say.

From there: Generally, every time you open up your AC system, some atmospheric moisture will get in, depleting the desiccant in the drier. So, my suggestion to you is this: Open the thing up ONCE. But AFTER you've bought all the components. Buy the hoses, save up. Buy the evaporator, save up. Buy the evap fan upgrade, save up. Buy the front condenser, save up. Over the course of a couple of years, you will have assembled the whole kit, and be ready to install all in one go.

[kuehl]

Wildthing,

As Eric pointed out its wiser to "do the job right, once".
If you try to piece meal a job you end up spending more time and money
on the objective.

Every time you need to replace an item that is in the refrigerant circuit,
such as driers, hoses, o-rings, evaporator, expansion valve, condensers
or compressor; you have to recover the refrigerant and the evacuate,
charge and test. That is costly and time consuming.

First you want to determine your 'needs' up front, rather than trial and test
what you think you need. Hence, evaluate you needs and what is needed
to achieve them. Needs are based on your driving climate, vehicle characteristics,
your personal needs and number of occupants.

Most of the better ac suppliers offer 'packages' which are typically
less expensive than buying each part piece meal. The key is what
do you need in your package. Alike planing for a family in the future,
do you need a 2 bedroom house with 1 bathroom or a 4 with 2.

First learn the short comings of the stock system, ways to improve upon
them and how the system works. They you can make an educated
decision; there are a few suppliers of systems and parts, whom you choose
will be your decision. Read the forums: Renn and PP here.

And,

Read The Mr. Ice Project . Its a great primer for the DIY and very informative.

[wrinkledpants]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Wildthing,



First you want to determine your 'needs' up front, rather than trial and test
what you think you need. Hence, evaluate you needs and what is needed
to achieve them. Needs are based on your driving climate, vehicle characteristics,
your personal needs and number of occupants.


Read The Mr. Ice Project . Its a great primer for the DIY and very informative.

Exactly. Living in FL or TX and wanting AC in stop and go traffic will be one thing. Living in Montana and wanting it for long drives is something totally different.

Post up where you're from what your driving habits are - and folks can recommend a setup that will be adequate for what you want to do without breaking the bank.

[aoncurly]

kuehl,
My situation is this: I live in LA - I take my 81 911SC out maybe 4-5 times during the summer, and where I live, the days are in the 90s. After a drive, my shirt is soaked. For the amount I drive, I am satisfied with the factory air (York compressor) when it worked. My problem is, although my system was checked for leaks and none was found, my system won't hold a charge for more than a month or so (maybe less). After charging with refrigerant several times, I stopped using my AC. This is probably 15 years ago. From all I read, I am assuming my hoses need replacement with barrier hoses. With the refrigerant change I need, I am guessing I also need a replacement drier. My question is, can I just replace barrier hoses and my drier and expect that by doing this, I will no longer have to recharge with refrigerant? Or at least recharge it every couple of years or so.

[Josh D]

aoncurly,

I know you directed your question to kuel, but here's some food for thought. The A/C system in your car is 32 years old. It has 5 major components all linked by hoses. Anyone of these components or their connections can be a potential leak point. You could replace all your hoses to find that there is a cracked tube in the front condenser, for example. You can use die or a halogen leak detector to find your leak. I actually had a leak in the rear condenser where the ignition coil had been making contact and rubbed a hole through. I was planning on a full system replacement anyway, so that gave me the motivation to do it.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Wildthing,

As Eric pointed out its wiser to "do the job right, once".
If you try to piece meal a job you end up spending more time and money
on the objective.

Every time you need to replace an item that is in the refrigerant circuit,
such as driers, hoses, o-rings, evaporator, expansion valve, condensers
or compressor; you have to recover the refrigerant and the evacuate,
charge and test. That is costly and time consuming.

First you want to determine your 'needs' up front, rather than trial and test
what you think you need. Hence, evaluate you needs and what is needed
to achieve them. Needs are based on your driving climate, vehicle characteristics,
your personal needs and number of occupants.

Most of the better ac suppliers offer 'packages' which are typically
less expensive than buying each part piece meal. The key is what
do you need in your package. Alike planing for a family in the future,
do you need a 2 bedroom house with 1 bathroom or a 4 with 2.

First learn the short comings of the stock system, ways to improve upon
them and how the system works. They you can make an educated
decision; there are a few suppliers of systems and parts, whom you choose
will be your decision. Read the forums: Renn and PP here.

And,

Read The Mr. Ice Project . Its a great primer for the DIY and very informative.

Spoken like the TRUE snake oil salesman he is....

Provided you follow the proper procedure, fully evacuate the system each time you "open" it, there will be NO issue of moisture accummulation time after time.

You can ignore my suggestions regarding engine lidsfans, etc, I have nothing to sell but fresh ideas.

So I would suggest that you first: Add an aftermarket fender mounted condensor/fan, convert to R-134a, and use the hi/lo pressure sensor as Kuehl suggests, to protect the compressor should the refrigerant ever run low, and to protect other A/C components by preventing the compressor from over-pressurizing the system.

Totally your call on the non-barrier hose issue.

But my suggestion (there we go again) would be to make that a trinary pressure switch and use the extra function to run that new fan, and maybe the front lip condensor fan, only when the system pressure warrants.

Personally (Again..??) I would also provide an after-run capability, allow those fans to run, only if warranted, for a period of time even after you turn the ignition off.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by aoncurly

kuehl,
I take my 81 911SC out maybe 4-5 times during the summer My question is, can I just replace barrier hoses and my drier and expect that by doing this, I will no longer have to recharge with refrigerant? Or at least recharge it every couple of years or so.

The barrier hoses will typically solve the issue on your year car as far as common leaks with the 911. If you still have an old York compressor the manifolds where the hoses connect leak often. If your condensers are in good shape and your evap, well... there is nothing left to leak. So if you are just looking for 'integrity' (no leaks) and if you still have a York, I'd suggest this as a minimum:

Kuehl 507 Comp Kit,
Complete Barrier hose set, with low-high pressure switch,
New Drier,
R134a conversion kit with ester

something like this 911 Kuehl 507 Compressor kit #3B,.
This kit would be a "turn key" solution for you, other than labor, refrigerant, evac,charge,test.
For a DIY, on the ground, figure 10 hours with common tools. You'll save a few hours
on a lift for the hose R&R procedure.




However, if you are looking for improved cooling performance, again Read The Mr. Ice Project this will also give you an understanding about your current objectives.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by wwest

Add an aftermarket fender mounted condensor

..... is referring, naturally, to our Kuehl Fender Condensers



Discussed in this section of the Mr. Ice Project

[wwest]

Originally Posted by aoncurly

kuehl,
My situation is this: I live in LA - I take my 81 911SC out maybe 4-5 times during the summer, and where I live, the days are in the 90s. After a drive, my shirt is soaked. For the amount I drive, I am satisfied with the factory air (York compressor) when it worked. My problem is, although my system was checked for leaks and none was found, my system won't hold a charge for more than a month or so (maybe less). After charging with refrigerant several times, I stopped using my AC. This is probably 15 years ago. From all I read, I am assuming my hoses need replacement with barrier hoses. With the refrigerant change I need, I am guessing I also need a replacement drier. My question is, can I just replace barrier hoses and my drier and expect that by doing this, I will no longer have to recharge with refrigerant? Or at least recharge it every couple of years or so.

"..month or so..."

Bothersome,....but...

May I suggest you convert to R-134a, and add a trinary pressure sensor/switch($20-50/parts). Use the sensor hi/lo function to control the compressor clutch just as Kuehl suggests. Then use the extra sensor function to power the front condensor fan at ALL times, even with the ignition off.

Keep track of the total cost $$$ and if this doesn't work I'll send you a check.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by wwest

"..month or so..."

Then use the extra sensor function to power the front condensor fan at ALL times, even with the ignition off.

Why would anyone want the front condenser fan running all the time?, even with the AC system off? even with the car parked in the garage over the winter?

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Why would anyone want the front condenser fan running all the time?, even with the AC system off? even with the car parked in the garage over the winter?

Funny, puzzling question for Porsche A/C, overall A/C expert/guru you claim to be.

The extra trinary switch functions, closes, ONLY when the system pressure level is above a "set" point, and then opens once the high pressure is alleviated.

Have you never walked by an unoccupied car with the radiator fan running, or even had the radiator fan start running as you walk by...? Same idea, function.

[baloo]

Originally Posted by wwest

So I would suggest that you first: Add an aftermarket fender mounted condensor/fan, convert to R-134a, and use the hi/lo pressure sensor as Kuehl suggests, to protect the compressor should the refrigerant ever run low, and to protect other A/C components by preventing the compressor from over-pressurizing the system.

...But my suggestion (there we go again) would be to make that a trinary pressure switch and use the extra function to run that new fan, and maybe the front lip condensor fan, only when the system pressure warrants.

WHere is the hi/lo pressure sensor located, just in case there already is one installed on this new-to-me car?
Also, can you direct me to more details about a "trinary pressure switch", and where it would go, and how to plumb it in?