recourse for bad top end job

[jhugh]

Last year I had my top end rebuilt. That was $5K and 7K miles ago, Now I'm at 106K on the odometer. A month ago the car started smoking. To make a very long story short, I now know that I have severely, prematurely worn valve guides, mainly on the exhaust side. Particularly #3 and #6. No other damage - valves are straight.

I don't really care why it happened - the job was just not done properly. I don't want the same mech or his sub to ever touch my engine again, beause emotionally and finanically, I cannot handle having the engine out of the car after this. In 12 months of ownership, I've driven the car 6 months. This time I'm doing the in/out and reassembly myself. The heads will be machined & rebuilt by an undisputed pro.

My questions are really about recourse. I need some remuneration here. At the very least I want the guy to pay my machinist. But what's that -- $500-$800? That's not much out of the $5K I paid him to do the top end job. With all this work I'm doing myself, I feel I need something more. What are some reasonable ideas? Cash? Maybe some nifty parts (3.4L p's & c's)?

Before I go to negotiate with him, I'd appreciate any ideas you more experienced folks have.

Cheers,

[Zeke]

I don't think negotiations are going to work here w/o some leverage. Your waranty period probably ran out. You might be able to convince the CA Dept of Consumer Affairs/ Auto Repair division that the job was inferior. You will need complete info backed up by a licensed mechanic or a recognized expert. This will all take a lot of time. A lot. The investigators are most likely months behind.

A better route is small claims court. Lots of facts backed up. What I'm trying to say here is, before you approach the previous mechanic, be prepared to go all the way. Know what you can do and be willing to do it. That kind of disgruntled customer would get my attention.

I'm a contractor licenced by the same bureau. Fortunately, I have never had to settle a complaint directed towards me in court. I have sued another contractor, though, and won.

[JDaniel]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune.

When I had my top end done the wrench never touched the heads (other than the R & R). The heads were sent out for cleaning, machining, and replacement of valve guides and related materials.

Make sure you know who you are blaming for the shoddy work... if it's the machine shop doing a crappy job, then your wrench may even help you find restitution.

[kstar]

In my experience (in California), you have little recourse except perhaps in court.

After my problems with that certain SoCal "rebuilder", the B.A.R. (Bureau of Auto Repair - the folks who license repair shops and such) told me that there are no legal standards by which motor rebuild work is scrutinized.

Unless you can prove fraud, the B.A.R. probably cannot help you. I was told by the B.A.R. that poor and foolish work (on motors) is not against the law. Transmissions are another story in Cali, as there are certain standards to which tranny rebuilds must be performed.

I do not even think that an opinion of the work by a top notch shop will help you with the B.A.R.; these guys are looking for fraud, not poor work. I sent about 30 pages of documentation, measurements (from a couple of the best shops in SoCal) and photos to the B.A.R. regarding my $20k+ fiasco . . . no luck.

Expect about 100xs less (than zero) from the B.B.B.

If you have dealt with an otherwise honest shop, they will probably want to make good on the deal. If you are dealing with a shop that is well aware of California law and has made it a practice to take advantage of consumers knowing that recourse against the shop is probably unlikely, then you might very well be screwed.

If you choose small claims court (based on dollar amount) be sure to have meticulous records of every step of the work performed documented. If you are considering a lawyer and such for a larger claim, then think again.

Sometimes it is better to "bite the bullet" and cut your losses. If you are confident you have been had and have the facts to back it up, make your story public; you will be doing a service to many other Porsche loving folks throuoghout the State and Country, and perhaps World.

I know for sure that the folks who took me for a bunch of $s have now lost more money than they would have otherwise lost had they "taken care" of me. I have personally turned away about 10 folks who were considering that certain SoCal rebuilder - and I have seen many others turned away by reference to my story and other's stories about this certain "shop".

I will never stop spreading my "story". Sometimes justice is best served by the honest, unemotional flow of information, not lawyers and more $s. That's one thing the Net and the various Porsche clubs are very good for!

Best of luck to you!

Kurt

Edit: The following information is included for search/archiving purposes only: Motor Meister - MM - MotorMeister

[Targa77]

Have you called the shop that did the work? If so, what did they say?

[Don Wohlfarth]

hugh, get your ducks in a row before going back to the original shop. Look at your receipt to see if any valve guides were replaced and exactly what work was done.
If it's a decent shop that should stand behind their work. If not you would have to go to court and the whole he said, she said deal.
I understand your frustration of paying for a sloppy job. Best advice may be to cut your loss. Seriously doubt that any money recovered would offset effort and expense trying to prove to that someone has tried to cheat you.
Hope the shop will make good on their work.

[john walker's workshop]

how do you know about the guide wear? are the heads off and disassembled? what stem seals were used, brown or white? were you charged for 12 guides? you could make a short story a bit longer and then we would have some info to comment on.

[Dan Owens]

Jhugh,

Sorry to hear of your situation. I can't tell from your post whether you have talked to the shop that did the work for you yet or not. If you haven't then I would. Despite what some may say I don't know too many decent shops that that don't stand behind there work to some degree. Also by your post I'm not clear on how you discovered the work was shoddy or incomplete? Has someone looked at your car already? Even though you may be out of the warranty period it's not all that long in time or mileage I would guess. If that's the case and something as severe as this has occurred I think most shops would want to know and would also try to work with you on a remedy. As someone else posted the shop that pulled the engine and did the "repair" isn't necessarily the shop that did the head work. I'm sure they would want to know if they're using someone that provides less than quality work too. You obviously trusted the shop enough to use them in the first place I'd at least try to talk to them about the problem and the solution first.

Dan O
'84 3.2 Targa

[jhugh]

Thanks for the views. I talked with the shop today and we seem to have a solution.

Yep, all the valve gear had been replaced - valves, guides, seals, springs, rocker arms, cams too. It's all on my receipt. The mech accepts responsibility for the failed guides and (apparently) poor machining/assembly and will sub warranty rebuild of the heads to the machinist of my choice. Because I'm sparing him all the work of de-installation/installation, disassembly and assembly (and the hook of any further accountability) I may also get some new p's and c's for all of my trouble. Good guy.

I pulled the engine out, got the p's and c's out myself. Showed them to a very solid machinist who pulled the heads apart and pointed out the valve guide issue.

John Walker - The guides are neither "brown" nor "white" in my eyes. They're sorta gold / brass colored.

Someday, I will drive my car again. I just know it.

Cheers,

[Targa77]

Sometimes all it takes is a phone call. Shops that care about their reputation and take pride in their work will try to make amends.

[Dan Owens]

Hugh,

That's great news for the repair side anyway. I certainly understand your position on not having the car available to drive. I've driven mine twice since Feb of 2001. I can't begin to tell you the trama my car has seen during that time. I'll have it back in a few more days and be back on the road again myself and can't wait. Hang in there, it's worth the wait.

Dan O

[Wayne 962]

Use Walt at Competition Engineering. Probably the best in the US right now...

-Wayne

[Jim Sims]

Ted Robinson at German Precision in Sunnyvale also does quality 911 head work. Jim

[jhugh]

It's actually Ted who's doing the heads now. Great guy, obviously with a great rep.

Cheers,

[TimT]

Ted does some fine work, and he is an absolute fountain of engine building tips and other really usefull advice. The war horse gang