How to adjust toe & camber

[HJT911]

Can anybody give some helpful advice how to align toe & Camber on the rear axle of an 1986 911. Any comment would be appreciated.

[Hunt3R]

I also have an 86 911 and I've had some trouble trying to align my rear end to spec. The toe is good, but I recently took it to Porsche of Orlando for an alignment and they said they could not get the camber on the rears any lower than -1.77 (both sides) because "the car is too low". It's set at euro height, it's really not that low. OEM spec is -1.0. Is this expected?

Some Porsche owners have since suggested to me that the mechanics there must've just not known how to work on older 911's.

[HJT911]

Thanks for your quick response,
but the main question for me is how to do the job in principle.
Best would be a "Step by Step" description.

[T77911S]

Originally Posted by HJT911

. Any comment would be appreciated.

take it to a shop.

also have it weight balanced.

[Hunt3R]

Originally Posted by HJT911

Thanks for your quick response,
but the main question for me is how to do the job in principle.

Sorry to sorta hijack with my own question but I've asked it multiple times in the past and never get a response. Everyone can tell how to align it, but not what numbers to expect once you do the alignment. Maybe after you try aligning yours you can report back with your results?

[msterling]

Lowering the rear will increase negative camber. With proper adjustments, you should be able to get at least 2.5deg rear camber which is probably too much for a street car. Here is an article with some how-to. I have my rear camber set to -1.75 deg which is an in-betweener as I am looking for decent performance in Autocross. I have front camber at .75 deg but I lower the front for AX which temporarily increases neg camber a bit.

[Trackrash]

Sorry to sorta hijack with my own question but I've asked it multiple times in the past and never get a response. Everyone can tell how to align it, but not what numbers to expect once you do the alignment. Maybe after you try aligning yours you can report back with your results?

Depends on what you do with the car. I ran .5 front and .75 degrees negative camber rear, when I was using my car as a commuter. Tires lasted for ever and the handling was good, considering it had street tires.
Once I started autocrossing, with RA-1 tires, I went up to 1.5 degrees negative, front and rear. Still commuted to work. Autocrossing wore the outside of the tread and commuting on the freeway wore the inside, so all was good.
Now autocrossing with Khumos and being retired, I run as much camber as I can get, which is about 2.25 degrees negative. Its a little darty on the street sometimes.

Doing your own alignment is risky business. Make a mistake and you could have serious consequences.

[cashman]

Search:
Ray+Scruggs
Home+alignment
String+alignment

This will provide tons of information and all the how to's you need.

I just aligned my rear for the first time and feel pretty confident about the results.

[Hunt3R]

This was my first time aligning a 911, I'm used to setting a high negative front camber, I usually do between -2 to -3, and a lower negative rear camber, like -1 or maybe even closer to 0, in order to induce oversteer and I've found this to be a good balance for a street car that I occasionally autoX.

It seems like everyone tries to set a higher negative rear camber on 911's, is this because of the rear engine? Does the oversteer need to be corrected some instead? I currently have -1.36 fronts and -1.77 rears and honestly the car handles great like this. I was thinking I needed to get the rears lower, below -1, though like I said mine won't seem to go any lower. They'll definitely go higher, but I don't want that. At least I don't think I do...

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by HJT911

Can anybody give some helpful advice how to align toe & Camber on the rear axle of an 1986 911. Any comment would be appreciated.

HJT,

I do all my wheel alignment at home for the track car using simple home-made laser beam alignment tools. To be able to set the toe and camber for the rear tires, you must be able to read or observe the change during the adjustment process. This is how I do my alignment from condition 'A' to condition 'B'.

Toe and camber setting for initial setting (condition-A):
1. Lift the car or just the rear end off the ground.
2. Remove rear tire.
3. Check the vertical and horizontal planes of the brake rotor. I use a tool that has vertical and horizontal laser pointers attached to the brake rotor. These laser beams will point to the ground (camber) and to a wall (toe). These laser readings are specific to condition-A. Place a masking tape to where these laser beams projected and this is your initial setting.
4. If you need more camber, adjust the beam to move slightly outward (away from the center of the car) using your reference point on the floor. Same with the toe , moving the laser beam outward would decrease the toe reading.
5. Tighten the adjusting nuts and bolts, take the final reading and drop the rear to the ground. The rear of the car would be higher than normal and allow the car to settle. Or drive it around the blocks to bring the ride height back to normal.
6. Measure the new toe and camber readings.

You could get as much as 2.75 deg. but not all the time. 2.5 degrees is most you could get consistently for both sides. HTH.

Tony

[DRACO A5OG]

Wow, it is bit more but not limited to the following:

You first need to verify your garage floor is level, if not, get some rigid vinyl 12"X12' tiles from home depot. I used a HF 6' level and my digit level on top of it to verify zero. This part IMHO is the most critical to obtain proper readings. Mark the floor where tires need to rest, if floor is not level. Oh yeah tires, properly inflated as well.

I used the string method and made a camber tool using modified digital level to fit my 17" rims. I am assuming you do not have HTH fancy laser tool so you now need to verify your rims are true or you will get false readings, spin them to check for hi & lo spots by using a hand drill to prop it up and place the tip against the rim ( use blue tape if you do not want to scratch the rims ) tape off hi and lo sections, you want to measure in the same spot 12 & 6 o'clock or at least in the same sections always. Write down your readings.

Now the fun part

Raise the car, use jack stands always for safety and to even out the car's rear and remove the wheels, spray the plates with some light colored paint at the side ways wide U and at the 2 adjustment nuts, allow it to dry then use a sharpie and mark around the U and pick 12 o'clock on the two nuts. This is now your 3 reference points of your current settings.

You need to remove all load from the rear arms, unbolt the sway bar and struts. Loosen the two lock bolts but do not remove them then the adjustment nuts.

You are now ready to make your adjustments, write down your goal settings, it will take many times for a first timer, ask me how I know but I have OCD so I could not tolerate but less than exact goal settings, if you are okay with +/- you will finish earlier. But keep a log so you know you are going the correct direction.

I helped my buddies '86 in 12 tries, amazing . I suggest 1MM increments to get a feel of the results and readings. Remember the 13MM allen bolt is eccentric so once you hit the limit it will drop/loose extremely so, just be ready and do it again. Oh yeah, adjusting one will affect the other so you have to adjust both, for example, let's say you got your reading and then find yourself needing more neg camber, you must adjust for toe as well. Think of the adjust line as a diagonal not just horizontal and vertical.

To remove pre-load from the T-bars, move the car forward and back several times couple of feet and bounce on the bumpers, front and back, wait a few minutes then take your readings.

I know I am missing something but others more experience will chime in. But hope you get the concept. +1 try to borrow some scales and corner balance her, she will drive so much better around corners like on rails

Jim

[Trackrash]

Draco makes a lot of good points.

First thing I would do is confirm your corner balance is good. There are threads on this. I use a modified "tripod" method.
Also, important, is the condition of the bushings and bearings. Loose or worn bushings or loose bearings will give unreliable readings.

You first need to verify your garage is level, if not get some rigid vinyl 12"X12' tiles from home depot. I used a HF 6' level and my digit level on top of it to verify zero. This part IMHO is the most critical to obtain proper readings. Mark the floor where tires need to rest, if floor is not level.

This is critical, and no concrete floor is perfect.

I used the string method and made a camber tool using modifying a digital level to fit my 17" rims. I am assuming you do not have HTH fancy laser tool so you now need to verify your rims are true or you will get false readings, spin them to check for hi & lo spots by using a hand drill to prop it up and place the tip against the rim ( use blue tape if you do not want to scratch the rims ) tape off hi and lo sections, you want to measure in the same spot of in the same sections always. Write down your readings.

Good point to verify rims are true. Also don't take measurements from the tires, only the rims. If you are running Fuchs, they are usually very true, but still you should check.
I use a machinist's level on the center of the wheel, where the cap goes, (obviously the center caps are removed), to measure the camber.

Raise the car and remove the wheel, spray the plates with some light colored paint at the side ways wide U and at the 2 adjustment nuts, allow it to dry then use a sharpie and mark around the U and pick 12 o'clock on the two nuts. This is now your 3 reference points of your current settings.

Good idea to mark where you start.
HOWEVER, I never raise my car before or during an alignment. I want the suspension to be "settled" in its as driven position.
I use a long 19mm combination wrench to loosen the nuts with the wheels on the ground.

To remove pre-load from the T-bars, move the car forward and back several times and bounce on the bumpers, front and back, wait a few minutes then take your readings.

Actually, if you don't jack the car up, you will still have to do this. This is a critical, and frustrating, step. The problem is your wheel's alignment will be held in place by the friction of the tire on the ground. Rolling the car allows the wheel to move into its new position.
Every time you make an adjustment, tighten the nuts, roll the car back and forth, then take your measurements.

A couple of other things to keep in mind. Changing the camber or the ride height can affect the toe setting, and vice-versa.

Remember that the rear wheel's toe settings must be equal on both sides of the car. In other words, the direction of the rear tires must be same when compared to the center-line of the car. Otherwise you car will not track straight down the road. Using the string method will help insure this.

Good luck.

[DRACO A5OG]

Originally Posted by Trackrash

Good idea to mark where you start.
HOWEVER, I never raise my car before or during an alignment. I want the suspension to be "settled" in its as driven position.
I use a long 19mm combination wrench to loosen the nuts with the wheels on the ground.

Hmmm, I will try this next time around, but such a tight space with 17"s