Wwest. The high side pressure did not rise post shut off. Here we are again. Post the damn video.

If you don't believe Kuehl, your MAC "GOD" then who do you believe...?

Post the video. I hooked up the gauges myself. Ran on high. Sable pressures. Turned off car. High side did not rise. You keep talking about a phenomena that doesn't exist anyplace but your mind.

I agree with Keuhl because I did the test myself not because he is a GOD. this has nothing to do with kuehl. High pressures don't rise post shut down. If you are so convinced, buy a set of gauges, video the test, and post the proof.

"...unsubstantiatted BS...."

Not wrong, ONLY "unsubstantiated"...I'll accept that as progress.

Post the video Wwest.

Towards what end? What are we progressing towards?

Twice, each with multiple test series, sequences, I have shown that the rear lid condenser fin/vane temperature rises post engine shutoff, 120F - 150F IIRC. According to the P/T chart, widely published and accepted as a "standard", even by Kuehl himself, the pressure inside the "vessel" must rise with temperature in accordance with the chart.

The only question left to answer is "how high?".

With an R-134a charge and a standard R-134a binary pressure switch one can see beginning, just prior to ignition off, high side pressures might well be as high as 398 PSI. That's almost 50 PSI above the "trigger" point for many HPRV's in use during the period of interest.

So our starting point is 398 PSI.

Now, how much liquid refrigerant might there be remaining within the R/D volume...?

If we wait for the compressor to cycle off just prior to switching the ignition off then that volume should be "full", should it not...??

So, last, the TXV....

Let's suppose the vent temperatures were within range of the evaporator having to be near the point of freezing any condensate, a common "picture" we see here in these forums. So the TXV would only be metering enough refrigerant to sustain the evaporator core at that level.

Now we switch off the ignition, the evaporator blower stops, as does the cooling airflow for all condensers. And the engine compartment temperature might well rise to 70C...

In that case why would the high side pressiure NOT rise substantially ABOVE 398 PSI...??

And then ask yourself: "what about a compressor that only cycles off due to a thermostatic switch, no limit to high side pressure...??"

And what about if someone has pulled the capillary tube slightly out of the evaporator holder thinking to get lower vent temperatures...?

"..worse that can happen..?? For a naysayer the worse would be verification of the proposed solution. Can't let that happen...MUST prevent....

Post the video wwest. You are forgetting many factors.

where does this number come from in laymans terms?

Post the video. It will prove or disprove. What are you so afraid of?

Will,

Are you aware of everything you have proposed?

I have said several times the fan and safety switches are ok in my book.

Why was it necessary to "propose" not buying aftermarket front condensers?

A 30 second video will make your last 500 post pointless. Why not?

Binary Switch w/ R-134a Discharge Port 7/16" - A/C Pressure Switch

398 PSI, while seemingly common for modern R-134a designs, is a bit high for our "legacy" A/C systems so:


Trinary II™ Switch Freightliner OEM# RD 5-4585-0

Yes. In that case I am quite certain that the buyer would be wasting money.

Have you seen the contents/COST of the "kit" Griffiths wishes to sell for a simple R-134a conversion..???

Why do you care what Griffiths does. Post the video!!!!!!!!! All the noise is pointless.

OK - I understand the 398. Thx

Now, I must of missed this test:

Twice, each with multiple test series, sequences, I have shown that the rear lid condenser fin/vane temperature rises post engine shutoff, 120F - 150F IIRC.

Are you saying the above sentence / test negates the need for a "video"?

I don't know the answer, but it may save three hundred posts before it's asked again if this is your basis for not addressing the video request.

Q: how much is it worth?

A: whatever the market will bear.

It's called economics.

Maybe you could get everything Charlie sells for less if you bought all the components indicidually. I don't know that to be true, but let's say that it is. If I choose to go to Charlie because he's a one stop shop for everything I need, well then I'm paying for convenience. It happens every freaking day in this world. Guess what, Mac laptops are always more expensive. If you don't like it, you don't have to buy one. But Apple sure does sell a lot of them.

And if a viable competitor came on the scene that gave Charlie, or Zims or anyone else for that matter, then you would see prices drop.

If you believe so strongly that Charlie charges too much for not enough value, then get off your retired butt and give him a run for his money and quite annoying everyone with your little jihad.

But you just tilting at those windmills ok, Don Quixote. Because you've obviously accomplished so much blathering on here.

Temp increase does not = a linear increase in pressure because there are other factors. Like the 40 feet of hose that equalize the pressure increase. When I did the test I don't doubt that temps on the condenser rose... But pressure didn't rise.
If wwest is so convinced there is no reason to not prove it with a video. Except he is afraid he might be wrong...

IT's yet another diversion, and another page from the book of "I'm Not Wrong", wwest, publisher.

It's a fascinating thing, this "prove me wrong" line he has going. The premise is faulty - proving a negative is impossible. For a guy who says he relies on logic to arrive at conclusions, he is supremely unaware of what actual "logic" entails. He is unclear about science, he is unfamiliar with technical terms, and he is uninformed about the actual operation of the components of the 911 AC system. But he will nitpick around the edges in a pedantic way to try an impeach someone else's credibility.

What he doesn't realize is that this only cements further his own lack of credibility. Pedantry is another hallmark of the troll.

Or a bored, old man with nothing better to do with his time. It's sad. Very sad. I pity him his lack of life.

Yes, I recall this from the Gilligan thread.

Of course he is wrong. And his position here is to question everything and have other post evidence. From that, he can glean inconsistencies and differences, then claim victory. Or he can criticize the experimental design (without actually proving that the design is faulty) and claim the results invalid.

It's easy to be a critic. But if you take it too far, you become a buffoon.

As to the condenser temperature rise, I think I calculated what it would take to raise the pressure in the condenser to 400psi (just the condenser, not the rest of the system), and the temperature was above the normal operating temp of the motor. IOW, the condenser will NEVER see that temperature in real life, anywhere in the U.S., including Death Valley in the summer.

Hey, I can whip out the the gas law again. Wanna see it? :)

In the test I did, repeated serveral times as proof to myself, and posted, the rear lid condenser fin/vane temperature rose from about 120F to about 150F post engine shutdown. Admittedly not a big "movement" but it does go to prove that the high side pressure will often rise post engine shutdown. Just how much is a function of happenstance.

I still plan to do the video, but in my own good time. Only my wife gets tto command the "how high" response.

I do have guages, purchased long ago, 93-94, when I was still trying to sort out the automatic climate control system in my then '92 LS400. The Lexus factory shop/repair manuals tended to leave out some important aspects of the operation.

At this moment the '88 system is down being fitted with a Red Dot trinary switch. The plan of the moment is to determine what is the rear lid condenser fin/vane temperature cognizant with the opening and closing of the switch's third, fan/shutter, control element.

With that knowledge in hand we will be able to design a circuit that uses a thermistor taped to the rear lid condenser outlet to automatically switch the cabin heater blower on/off.

Or maybe even use the thermistor as an input to the PWM motor controller so that the blower speed will rise in accordance with a rise in condenser fin/vane temperature.

Maybe even add "auto-heat" to the '88 using then new PWM variability of the cabin heater fan/blower speed.

No need to open the system to add the feature.

I removed the "Silber was laying on the learning" as after I wrote it, I looked up what pedantry means and thought - Oh crap, if Will takes the time to look it up what pedantry means it will be another red herring argument offered up by the master of wind.

The resident expert of nothing is dreaming up a new theory as we speak. Of course a 30 second test would eliminate the need but he is a bored old senile man with nothing better to do...

Sorry, I'm a long-time veteran of USENET, and have seen wwest in his innumerable forms before. It's all the same person, and humbling them with actual knowledge is sometimes satisfying. I will admit that sometimes I also whip out my Funk and Wagnalls a little too often. My apologies for the vocabulary assault - I did not intend to use that weapon on anyone but wwest.

In my test case if the 30F rise in fin/vane temperature could have been "balanced" by an equal cooling elsewhere in the volume then no pressure increase would have been present.

But since that didn't, COULD NOT happen, the entire volume pressure rose.

Oh, no one ever said "linear" rise in pressure.

No need to dream up anything new, just reassert over and over and over and OVER that his original assumption is correct, denying all the while any other data that comes along. That the beauty of being right in all things - if there are data that show me to be wrong, then that must mean those data are wrong.

A perfect circle. Unbreakable. And utterly stupid.

Maybe one of these would help him?! :p

Amazon.com: The Thinking Toolbox: Thirty-five Lessons That Will Build Your Reasoning Skills (9780974531519): Nathaniel Bluedorn, Hans Bluedorn, Richard LaPierre: Books

The Art of Argument: Aaron Larsen, Joelle Hodge: 9781600510182: Amazon.com: Books

Critical Thinking: The Art of Argument (Available Titles Aplia): George W. Rainbolt, Sandra L. Dwyer: 9780495501572: Amazon.com: Books

Post the video wwest

Prove it. Post the video!!!!

No offense taken and none intended.

I remembered reading the pressure / temp discussion a week or so back and was just attempting to confirm the location. Then I figured out what I stated (Silber layed some learning....) may provide the REoN some more ammo with respect to the p-word.

Thanks for the response. I remember the post now.


"How high" is also applicable to your jump height when she directs your actions.

The first and the third are excellent books. I have read them.

The middle one I have not read, but if it helps wwest at all in the area of critical thinking...

Why would wwest read them? He is the resident expert that has proven all his theories in his own mind and you are just a unskilled naysayer.

I don't get it.

His theories are usually at the very least worth thinking about at first blush but they are unfortunately delivered as edicts. He is a lateral thinker and in non-AC threads he has hit the nail on the head more than once saving some poor souls butt. Plus, considering the crap he receives/deserves, he is overall pretty much a gentleman to other than griff and those he has put cross hairs on.

Why the disruptive and disorderly conduct? The dude could be a contender if he had some manners.

I don't get it either. Even his spal fan idea is worth considering. As you say. But all of these things could be proven easily... Or not...
If he weren't so hostile we could debate and prove or not...

Come on guys, let's not go soft on me now, look at all you've accomplished in forcing me to go back to the books/Google, thinking 'way outside the box, again and again.

WE may make a product, or 2, out of this yet.

So, keep it up...!