R12 Substitutes? Any one using them?

Kemo · 08-06-2002, 02:40 PM

I will be swaping my york for a nippondenso here in the next couple of months...Im looking for a cost effective alternative to R12. Anyone out there have any experience with products like Freeze 12 or Duracool?

As always, any comments are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

epbrown · 08-06-2002, 02:42 PM

Some people suggested this for the RR, but I've heard from a couple of people that it's not recommended. The problem is that your need recovery tanks for each kind of coolant, and most places won't work on a car with Freeze-12 or other non-standard stuff because it's a hassle to dispose of.

Emanuel

BlueSkyJaunte · 08-06-2002, 03:07 PM

There's some info here:

R12 versus R134

Read, then decide for yourself.

Joeaksa · 08-06-2002, 04:12 PM

Several of us here in Phoenix are using either Freeze-12 or ES-12 and are very happy with it. Either over the counter or some local shops are installing it.

Yes, some of its flammable but until we convert our cars to battery or fuel cell power and eliminate the 20 or so gallons of explosive gasoline we carry on top and in front of our feet, I am not going to worry about the 39 ounces of 70% butane or propane in the a/c hoses.

I am getting 40 degree outlet temps with my car on a 110 degree day using ES-12 costing $5 a can... it does not harm the atmosphere and is readily available without certification.

Joe

Mifintifin · 08-06-2002, 08:31 PM

Try Autofrost at

Cooltop R12 substitute

I'm using their Cooltop mix for R134 replacement and it works well. I get 38 degree vent temps.

Mifintifin

82 SC Coupe (w/993 3.6)
83 SC Cab

BlueSkyJaunte · 08-06-2002, 09:05 PM

Joe,

For a case of your brew of choice, can we get together and you show me how to charge up my system?

My outlet temp is down to about 70 degrees by the end of my 14 mile commute.

JackT · 08-07-2002, 03:53 AM

Mifintifin, The Cooltop 134 cools better than standard 134? Have you done any other changes to your A/C?

Joeaksa · 08-07-2002, 05:47 AM

Blue,

Email me directly. Several of us Pelicanheads in the valley have vacuum pumps and can give you a hand.

Joe

Tim Polzin · 11:08 AM

For drawing a vacuum, I connected a line to the intake on my air compressor and ended up with better than 25 inches. Don't know if it makes a difference, but my compressor has a dual stage head.

Tim

jazel · 08-07-2002, 10:14 AM

I use Enviro-Safe. I added a can to the R-12 in my SC last week and the temp at the vent is 38 deg. with 95 deg. outside.

I've got a question. If the R-134 is so safe why does it have to be reclaimed and disposed of?

surflvr911sc · surflvr911sc's Garage

Has anyone used R-12 from Mexico? It sold off the shelf down there, cheep, but I don't know of anyone that has actually used it. I've heard words of caution b/c of contaminates and lack of lubricants but nothing to back this up. I would guess that the same companies that made it for the US are the same that make for Mexico. Any thoughts?

Jeff · 08-07-2002, 11:18 AM

Joe,
Any chance of making this a Phoenix tech session? I would like to know how to do this for future reference.

Steve W · Steve W's Garage

I've used much R12 from Mexico. It's actually manufactured by DuPont in Mexico and it works the same. And I smell no funny gasses or contaminants. So it you can get it, go for it. The last time I was there, a few months ago, they sell small cans, large cans, and 30 lb tanks. If only I could smuggle it back on the cruise ship I was on. Did I mention they are manufactured and labeled by DuPont?

Most all R12 substitutes sold these days are a cocktail consisting of mostly propane. These companies just camouflage their mix by calling it a hydrocarbon replacement. Hello - that's what propane and isobutane is. I use a $2 tank of torch propane mixed with 20% isobutane (camping fuel) in my ac systems, and it works absolutely *****in. In my truck, it was practically blowing ice cubes.

Mifintifin · 08-07-2002, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrewT
Mifintifin, The Cooltop 134 cools better than standard 134? Have you done any other changes to your A/C?

DrewT

Sorry, missed your post. The Cooltop stuff does work better than straight 134. I'm actually using a mix of about 80/20 cooltop to 134. I haven't modified the system except converted the York to a rotary Sanden compressor. I did replace all the hoses and flushed the condensers with off the shelf R12 to R134 flush. Everything works OK but still short on condenser capacity in traffic. I have a Pro Cooler unit that I haven't had a chance to install. I hope it will help with standing still efficiency.

Mifintifin

82 SC Coupe
83 SC Cab

Joeaksa · 08-07-2002, 09:11 PM

Jeff,

We might make it a tech session. I know that JR and I both have vacuum pumps and gauges and Bob Hodges also has some experience in the area. Problem is where to do it?

Steve,

How do you mix the gasses or do you make up a manifold and do it this way? Your method is really cheap and readily available. Have seen several people on the net mixing their own stuff and wondered how it would work. I just plugged in some ES-12 into my "daily driver" that was low (has R-12 in it) and the mix is also blowing ice cubes as well. Works great as a mix...

Surf,

The R-12 from Mexico is mostly real freon, but you also find some that is a mix. I know of several people in Tucson who drive to Nogales and get their car filled with the real stuff while shopping there. Lots cheaper... Problem is that if you smuggle it back and get caught they can sieze your car and then it gets rather expensive!

Tim,

Vacuum is vacuum, no matter the source. I found a automotive pump on Ebay for $30 and its paid for its cost many times over. Problem for me is that you really should pull a system down for 30 minutes and I do not want my compressor to run that long.

Joe

JR911 · 08-07-2002, 09:50 PM

Joe,

You need to find us an empty hanger that is swamp cooled if we are going to do a tech session.

I still need to put in new seals in my Nip-D. compressor.

Let me know if a T-session is in the works.

J.R.

Steve W · Steve W's Garage

Joe, check out this faq on freon alternatives:

http://www.vettenet.org/acfaq.txt

The isobutane I purchased in a red can of camping fuel. I don't remember the brand, its well known, but I think it is something like 80% isobutane and 20% propane. The top of the can is almost identical to a old R12 can, so I used a standard top clipping R12 manifold adapter. The propane was a little trickier. I had to figure out a way to attach a R12 hose onto the torch end. I removed the flame tip off the torch adapter, drilled out a small hole through pin hole sized hole at the penis like tip, rethreaded the end so a standard R12 hose adapter would screw on, and just shot it into the AC system. If you want to, you could also remove the little check valve at the base of the torch, and drill it out. I didn't premix in an external container, though that's probably more accurate. I think it was Thomas Owen who also did the same on a couple of his cars and got excellent results. You might want to check the high side pressure after you are done, because it is easy to overfill the system. Just remember that you only need to fill less than half the weight of propane as you would freon. Something like 14 oz total is sufficient for the whole system.

kepperly · kepperly's Garage

ANYONE WANT SOME REAL MADE IN THE USA R-12 FREON?
14OZ CANS FOR $40.00 PER CAN PLUS ACTUAL UPS FREIGHT
keithepperly@earthlink.net