Does the Powerflow work?

[930Chas]

There is an ongoing debate as to whether or not the Pwerflow system actually gives more hp. Some have dyno results saying yes it does, and others have dyno results saying no it doesn't. Anyway, this argument has been going on for sometime on the turbo board, and now Todd Zuccone from Powerflow wants to do some real world testing on a modified 930. So, if anyone in the Phoenix area wants to let their car be used as a guinea pig for a day give him a shout, 480-317-9911. I am not trying to promote Powerflow, I am just curious as to whether or not the system really works.

[RarlyL8]

It really doesn't matter if the Powerflow increases HP or not.

Just the fact that the question is raised means that IF the air cleaner adds HP it doesn't add a significant amount.

You wanna spend $400 for the opportunity of a few HP? NOT ME!

[930Chas]

They are $250 now, and yeah I'd pay that just to clean up my engine compartment a little bit. A few more hp would just be icing on the cake. In fact, I have one on order now anyways, hp +/- withstanding. But thanks for writing in with your extremelly poignant analysis. Your perspective was really enlightening.

[widebody911]

I have one on my 3.6L, and didn't pay anywhere near $400 or even $250.

I can't speak to whether it makes more HP, as I've never used the stock airbox.

My PowerFlush(tm) intake made 2HP over the PowerFlow setup on the dyno. The PowerFlush(tm) moves the air cleaner out of the back of the engine compartment, where it can breath cooler, fresher air.

[RarlyL8]

The powerflow being refered to in the initial post is for the 930.

This unit was $400 bucks last time I looked. It'd have to get down to $100 before I would even consider it. If you want more power out of a turbo you turn up the wick. Pretty dodadds that might add 2-4 HP to a 400 HP engine are a joke.

That said, they will sell lots of them. K&N have made a killing with no proof of power increases. People LIKE $400 pretty dodadds on there shiny motors.

[930Chas]

I guess people like pretty doodads on the outside of their cars too, huh? Like that horespower increasing body kit. Hmmm.

[island911]

azzholio. . is that you?

Edit: my mistake. . .. but 930chas, thanks for writing in with your extremelly poignant analysis. Your perspective was really enlightening.

[RarlyL8]

The posermobile body kit was purchased because they advertised that it TAKES AWAY POWER in the form of drag.

The kit screams "I have too much power". Maybe I do need a powerflow to complete the facade.

[WydRyd]

OK guys, there's no need to get into a flaming war!

In my opinion (take it for what it's worth), one of the first cost-effective upgrades people do to their turbocharged engines (whether Porsche or Ricer) is to fit a free flowing intake/filter and up the boost slightly. These seem to be the cheapest mods one can do to squeeze out a few extra ponies.

For those of us who are cost conscious, try drilling the factory airbox with a few 2" holes and do a G-Tech (or dyno) run and observe results. If there aren't any major gains to be had there, then chances are that a K&N or Powerflo won't contribute that much more apart from a cool sounding induction noise

I guess it would be interesting to see back-to-back dyno comparisons.

The next stage would be a free flowing exhaust or muffler and then a larger more efficient turbo & intercooler.

[Porschephd]

Gang,
Look at it this way. If we can pull off this group buy and get them down to 250.00 then look at the gains compared to say a computer chip. In the real work unless you have a turbo, chips yield very little gain compared to real HP. 2k for a MAF kit, 500 for a standard chip. The PF pulled on average for both Michael and I 13HP. I will be happy to provide either dyno. The point of Todd's request it to revisit what has been disputed. If the results show a gain of any sorts there are many of us that want the smaller box to clean up the engine and the added HP is a bonus. It is just another form of cleaning the car up. No different from your body kit Brian. In all their are those of us that will squeeze every bit of HP we can. While this is not as cool as a set of headers it serves a purpose and works within reason.

[RarlyL8]

Well, well. We finally hit on a subject controversial enough to get you to stop lurking and post.

Welcome - we could use someone with your turbo knowledge as an addition to the existing N/A brainbank.

My sarcastic point is this:

If you wish to add a powerflow to clean up your engine compartment and are willing to pay huge bux for it then by all means do so. This falls in line with my posermobile kit.
I just don't like the performance enhancement claims that the manufacturers make. The contoversy in this case is not how much power is added, but if any is added at all. If they wish to sell this item as an asthetic improvement I'm all for it. The stock box is an abomination. But it does work. Porsche engineers do a pretty fair job.

[Porschephd]

Thanks for the warm welcome. Now on to the show....Your point is well taken, and understood. My claim has always been as well as others as Lee Rice and John Walker that the unit does work. Clay Dopke also support the product. As you know dynoing 1 product takes time and some familiar knowledge of what to do and look at. It is never as simple as bolting it on and make a run. We have had several customers that were in question as well. They dynoed it and have confirmed the worth. Now with that being said and what you guys know of me would I put something on my car that didn't work? Would Michael? As always what separates us from the masses is we are car guys first. If it won't work on our cars then we don't want it or need it. We want proof on everything. I have a list of things on the desk that don't work. The public will never see it in our HP arsenal. The misunderstood few have caused some doubt and therefore has prompted Todd to revisit and retest in a controlled, educated environment the gains OR losses of the PF. I will post his response to the list below.

[Porschephd]

Hello Everyone,

I do not usually post due to political issued, however I want to interject a
few things regarding this post. I am one of the co-developers of this air
induction system and I want to point out some key characteristics about this
upgrade vs the OEM airbox. . First of all the factory airbox is somewhat
restrictive and becomes more restrictive with added performance upgrades. In
more detail, all of the motors air is being drawn through a 3.79" hole.
After the air enters this hole, it must immediately make a 90 degree turn
through the air filter into the main body of the airbox. This airflow
pattern is not distributed evenly through the air filter and causes
tremendous turbulence. As the air is flowing towards the air flow meter, it
is channeled down and restricted through an area aprox. 12.68 sq. inches
before it enters the scrolled area of the unit. As it enters the scrolled
area the air is forced to spiral around the cone which helps form the air
however reducing airflow before entering the airflow meter. Lastly, the OEM
unit is made from steel which is the best conductor of heat. The stock
airbox absorbs all of the engine heat which in turn increases intake temps
and can reduce HP.

Our intake system is injection molded from cross link polyurethane. Crosslink
polyethylene has the lowest thermal conductivity rating of any single-layered
moldable material available on the market today. This is key in keeping
intake temperatures low and increasing power. Second, the internal surface
of our system is glass smooth for better airflow. The smallest internal
diameter of our system is 17.16 sq. inches which is 35% larger than the OEM
system. This increased internal size allows more airflow into the motor for
added power. Another key component in the design of our system is the shape
and the cone air filter. A cone filter has superior air flow characteristics
as compared to flat panel filters. The cone filter better shapes the air as
it enters through the filter for smoother straighter more formed air. As the
air enters our unit, the design of the internal cavity will direct and turn
the air directly into the airflow meter. There is no spiraling effect like
with the OEM system, which enables the air to maintain its velocity and enter
the motor with the most force and airspeed.

In summery listed below are the major points to consider:

Materials:
? The OEM system is metal which absorbs heat.
? The Powerflow system is Crosslink polyethylene has the lowest thermal
conductivity rating of any single-layered moldable material available on the
market today.
Size:
? The OEM system is necked down to 12.68 sq. inches
? Our system is 17.16 sq. inches. Our system has 35% more area for air to
flow.
Air Flow:
? The OEM system has turbulent air flow due to the direction of airflow from
the air entering the unit before the panel filter, through the flat panel
filter, necking down through a narrow air passage and loosing velocity
spiraling around the round scroll before entering the air flow meter.
? Our system smoothes and straightens the air as it flows through the high
flow cotton cone filter. The internal glass smooth surface offers zero
restriction. The internal size and shape help move the air in the most direct
route to the air flow meter. The CAD designed shape helps turn the air
before the scroll area for direct airflow into the air flow meter.
Testing:
? There have been numerous independent tests, articles and testimonials
supporting the power gains of this product. I would be happy to furnish
these reviews if anyone is interested.

I hope this all makes sense to everyone. When we set out to make "a better
mouse trap" we improved upon the basic elements of airflow cone vs. flat
panel, size and materials. The more difficult task was the shape of the unit
and the size constraints. In the end, I feel that the product we developed
is a worthwhile upgrade that will add more power and torque, lower air intake
temperatures and increase engine compartment aesthetics. In the first year
in production, we sold more than 500 units with less than a 1% return rate
Currently there are about 1000 + units in the field and to the best of my
knowledge many very satisfied customers. If anyone has any specific
questions that they want addressed, feel free to contact me via telephone
480-317-9911 or e-mail tzuccone@evoms.com

Todd Zuccone

[beepbeep]

Original 930 box is ugly, but it's well designed and flows pretty well. Best of all, it inhales cool air beacuse of it's placement.

I wouldn't recomend replacing it with something else. As Rarly mentioned, you could add a few HP on a engine that has 300+.

Also, i wouldn't trade those few pesky HP's for more dust particles in the engine (which unfortunately seems to be common thing with "sport air-filter". I'll try to dig out URL to article where one BMW guy explains how people often put on "sport" -filters that actually draw in more hot air and inhale lot's of particles.

My 5c.

P.S.
If you really want good flow, get rid of CIS, use MAP-sensor equipped ECU and install huge open-air filter directly onto turbo-intake...then we are talking serious horsepower!

[Porschephd]

I wouldn't recommend placing the filter element down low under the car. The heat alone compared to the heat of the engine bay is far more under boost situations. Systems like this work well to pull air through without risk of saturating the surrounding cold inlet side with heat.

[930Chas]

I swear this is the last thing I will say on what started out as a simple desire to find out if a product works, and then turned into some kind of controversy. During which time I must point I have also been called an azzhole. Go figure, huh?

Anyhow, Rarly L8, the whole point of my original post was to find out if Powerflow can substantiate their hp claims. At which point, you replied,

"It really doesn't matter if the Powerflow increases HP or not."

Now you are saying,

"I just don't like the performance enhancement claims that the manufacturers make. The contoversy in this case is not how much power is added, but if any is added at all. "

That is WHAT WE WANT TO FIND OUT!!! That was the whole point of my original post. I fully agree with you, I want to see if they can substantiate their claims. I don't like it when a company says that this product will add this amount of hp, and then they never back it up. That is false advertising.

So, to end, maybe you should tone down your sarcastic opinionated remarks, throroughly read and understand the posts before responding, and then decide whether or not you really have anything relevant to add.

[Sean Hamilton]

Originally posted by Porschephd
......There have been numerous independent tests, articles and testimonials
supporting the power gains of this product. I would be happy to furnish
these reviews if anyone is interested.

I hope this all makes sense to everyone. When we set out to make "a better
mouse trap"....

" when setting the mouse trap with cheese, make sure you leave enough room for the mouse"

Okay Todd, I'll buy. But, my only concern is that YOU - the manufacturer did not state the HP gain anywhere in your post here.
Goes to credibility - what do I get and will you back it up? I have to in my business.

[RJ Gilliam]

I do not know if this thread is dead or not but I live in Phoenix and I have a 930.

What do you want to do to my girl?

[RarlyL8]

I suppose you all have visited the 911Turbo board today. It seems that one of the members took it upon himself to dyno the Powerflow on his 930 and compare it to a dyno he had done 45 days ago.

The result? He lost 14 HP.

Now comes the part I spoke of above. This fellow will now be attacked for not doing the dyno corectly or some other such crap.

This is why it doesn't matter (to me) if this contraption enhances power or not. Some folks' dyno runs will show gains while others will show losses. The net is that the gain (or loss) must be statistically insignificant.

Now it is purdy, and I wouldn't mind cleaning up my engine a bit more. But not for $400 or even $250. Now if you sold it in hot pink or purple.....

But hey, that's just me. One more lone data point.

[WydRyd]

Yup, I read the post on 911turbo.com and found it quite interesting. I'm sure that was the result when John Hunt performed his back-to-back tests a while ago. Can't remember whether there were no gains at all or losses.

Still, I'm curious to see what PowerFlow find in their tests on the same day under the same conditions etc.

John actually fitted a sport version of the GHL Muffler and found he gained an extra 40HP! Gotta get me one of those, or at least a gutted muffler. I love noise you see