Verification that Electric Door Lifts weigh less than manual winding mechansims

[RWebb]

It's been said that the electric lifts weigh less than the manual ones. I've been curious about this for years, and respected posters have said it is true, but I've never seen the data.

So... can anyone produce actual weights?

My motivation for this thread is the following:

Originally Posted by javadog

It would make my day if we could stop all of the off-topic crap in this forum...

JR

Plus, it's winter.

[javadog]

I've already posted that and I'm too lazy to look it up. You have to keep in mind that the later regulators weigh less than the early ones, so there's more than one correct answer.

My memory says going from the early electric regulators to the later manual ones is about a 7 pound savings, if you include the wiring, switches, etc.

JR

[group911@aol.co]

Window Power Conversion To Manual

[RWebb]

Thx for looking up that thread. JD's post #10 indicates that manual llfts will be lighter than electric (not sure if that includes all possible combinations to compare); that is the opposite of what is sometimes claimed.

[Arne2]

Well, that didn't last very long. Have to think up more tech topics...

[RWebb]

at least I tried!

[javadog]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Thx for looking up that thread. JD's post #10 indicates that manual llfts will be lighter than electric (not sure if that includes all possible combinations to compare); that is the opposite of what is sometimes claimed.

People claim all sorts of stupid crap. I've never understood why....

I don't have my notes in front of me, probably couldn't find them if I looked. Once upon a time I thought I'd settle this once and for all, so I started buying up used parts to weigh. I was going to convert one of my cars, so I already had a couple sets to play with. There are two style of regulator; the early parallel arm style and the later cross arm style. The early regulators are heavier. There are also different versions for coupes, targas and cabs. Basically, the open cars have an extra piece welded onto them to provide a window travel stop, since they lack window frames. Obviously, a coupe regulator will be slightly lighter.

The biggest savings comes from switching the early electric ones to the later manual ones. Less weight is saved if you swap an electric parallel arm regulator for a manual parallel arm regulator, or if you swap an electric cross arm regulator for a manual cross arm regulator. That's why you sometimes see different claims as to the weight savings.

In addition, people often disregard the weight of the switches and wiring, dismissing that as "nothing". In fact, it weighs 1 lb. 10. oz.

One last point is that the later regulators also require the use of a different window support channel on the bottom of the glass. This later piece is more elaborate, thus a little heavier. If you drill it full of holes, you can get it's weight back down to that of an early channel.

You can save a further 6 lbs. 10 oz. if you swap the glass windows for plastic replicas. Another little bit if you also do the front quarter windows...

JR

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by javadog

People claim all sorts of stupid crap. I've never understood why....


JR

I swear I read that the electric ones are lighter in one of Leffingwell's books... (but that doesn't answer the question above)

[javadog]

Originally Posted by RWebb

I swear I read that the electric ones are lighter in one of Leffingwell's books...

His books are not known for their lack of mistakes... I buy them for the pictures only...

There may no be much difference in weight between a later electric regulator and an early manual one, but you need to compare apples to apples. Looking at it another way, when Porsche built a lightweight model, it had manual windows.

Hard to argue with a scale...

JR

[Arne2]

Not much difference does not equal lighter. Porsches are not the only cars you hear this about, and this makes me wonder if the power-windows-are-lighter comments are all myth in all cars.

From the manufacturers' point of view, in modern cars I suspect the near-universal fitment of power windows is more about ease of packaging.

[manbridge 74]

Originally Posted by Arne2

Not much difference does not equal lighter. Porsches are not the only cars you hear this about, and this makes me wonder if the power-windows-are-lighter comments are all myth in all cars.

From the manufacturers' point of view, in modern cars I suspect the near-universal fitment of power windows is more about ease of packaging.

Also cheaper to produce the cable drive/plastic gear ones that strip out of the housing before 20K miles thereby driving people back to the parts counter. AKA GM.

[ParkerFE]

what year were manual windows last offered on a 911?

[javadog]

Okay, just because I think you knuckleheads are special, I went out and weighed the parts I still have on hand. For the record, I did not weigh the parts I could not find in the 10 seconds I allotted to looking for them, nor did I weigh the parts I have sold and shipped, long ago.

Numbers are in pounds-ounces.

Early coupe electric regulator with motor. 6-14.
Early coupe electric regulator w/o motor. 3-13.
Late coupe manual regulator. 3-12.
Late window stop bracket for targa/cab. 0-9.
Early window support channel. 1-0.
Late window channel, swiss-cheesed. 1.0.

I think the holes in the late window channel saved 4 ounces, or maybe it was 8. Hard to put them back and I'm not going to calculate it.

Not going to weight the bolts, or look for the window cranks, etc. You'll notice that most of the weight savings comes from ditching the motors, although some does come from the wiring and other bits. I seem to recall the later motors are lighter but I don't have one laying around to weigh it.

JR

[javadog]

Originally Posted by ParkerFE

what year were manual windows last offered on a 911?

1979, in the US, unless you count the later '87, '88 Clubsports, or the 90's RS cars.

Not sure about the other markets.

JR

[JohnJL]

no manual or electric winding mechanism weighs less than a piece of climbing sling riveted to a makrolon window.....no winder, no arms, no motor.....

[Tidybuoy]

I changed to power windows in my '74 about 2 years ago.

At the time, I weighed the electric arms with motors and they were 6lbs heaver than the manual. Most of the weight gain was in the motors. I remember this very clearly because I justified the excess weight by a commitment to lose 6 lbs (I have yet to start my diet). At this point, I don't care about the added weight because the convenience of power is great. And, my manual windows always felt like I was going to break the crank as it was old and stiff.

That said, over the past year, I acquired a modern power window setup from an '88 Carrera with the smaller motors. I did this because the spring mechanism is different with a sizzor movement and I liked this better because they use smaller motors as they use more leverage to move the window. However, I have not installed because they also require a part that attaches to the glass that is different from the '74 and has to be changed (i.e., the track wheels are larger and won't fit into the '74 track). I haven't weighed the '88 setup but it is obviously smaller and lighter than the earlier version.

I took photos (I think) of the motors and arms on the scale - I'll have to look when I get home.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by Tidybuoy

I changed to power windows in my '74 about 2 years ago.

At the time, I weighed the electric arms with motors and they were 6lbs heaver than the manual. Most of the weight gain was in the motors. I remember this very clearly because I justified the excess weight by a commitment to lose 6 lbs (I have yet to start my diet). At this point, I don't care about the added weight because the convenience of power is great. And, my manual windows always felt like I was going to break the crank as it was old and stiff.

That said, over the past year, I acquired a modern power window setup from an '88 Carrera with the smaller motors. I did this because the spring mechanism is different with a sizzor movement and I liked this better because they use smaller motors as they use more leverage to move the window. However, I have not installed because they also require a part that attaches to the glass that is different from the '74 and has to be changed (i.e., the track wheels are larger and won't fit into the '74 track). I haven't weighed the '88 setup but it is obviously smaller and lighter than the earlier version.

I took photos (I think) of the motors and arms on the scale - I'll have to look when I get home.

You get more exercise winding your own windows, and reaching across the car is good for the core.

Just sayin'...

[burgermeister]

Some (many? most?) modern power windows use cables instead of the long lever w/ gear & scissor mechanism the 911 uses. Those are indeed lighter than the corresponding geared manual ones. But the 911 power windows seem to be basically a manual window mechanism with a motor, so it makes sense that they'd be heavier.

[Elombard]

I changed the regulator in my 02' tahoe recently, it had the cables and was shockingly light. I did not have to remove the motor to change them. The whole assembly was so simple, I suppose some kind of retro fit would be a pain for only a few pounds.

[Tidybuoy]

Originally Posted by Flieger

You get more exercise winding your own windows, and reaching across the car is good for the core. Just sayin'...

OMG! I now fear that driving my power window'd 911 is going to make me like one of those "Scooter" people.