Getting a PPI doesn't seem realistic or possible.
 

I am wondering how you guys have pulled off a PPI when buying your 911.
Everyone says "Get a PPI! Get a PPI!" Yea, but HOW???

I was looking at an '86 Carrera I drove past in my neighborhood.
While I was there, another guy pulled up to write down the phone number.
When I met the seller, he was already on the phone with yet another caller.
The car was also listed on Ebay, so it was getting sold either way by the end of the week.

Asking this guy to PPI his car would have been out of the question.
He knows he's going to get an easy sale. No PPI.
(If I ever sell a car, it will be Ebay for this very reason. No annoying buyers to deal with.)
The seller just doesn't need to deal with the hassle when there are so many buyers who will not bother and just hand over the cash and drive away with a fake plate.

In fact, asking for a PPI just identifies you as a pain in the ass buyer, who will nickel and dime the PPI results.
Look, if it's been for sale for months with no takers, that's different;
But, it's a seller's market along with panic buying.... It's almost like a real estate mania and the way the 911 forums sound.
Asking for a PPI takes the car off the market for a week, when there are people calling daily.

The other huge obstacle for a PPI is the fact that at least 1/2 the cars I've seen for sale are not even currently titled/insured/registered.
Most often, a flipper is selling it, or the car has lapsed. So, the car is not even drivable.

Let's say you do find a private seller AND no other buyers.
Porsche shops are over an hour away.
So, what do you do? Call a flatbed to tow the car?
At $5/mile, you're looking at a $500 tow, and $400-$500 for the PPI?
$1000 a pop and I can see why people have posted that it's taken them a year or two to get the right 911 for them!
That's a tough pill to swallow for each car that doesn't meet standards.

On that note, I've only seen a handful of 911's in person, but MOST sellers don't even let you drive the car, even if it IS registered (most are not)
Most just give you a ride, registered or not. I've only actually driven one of them, so I don't even know if I would enjoy a 911.
Right now, I just like the idea of owning one, but actually buying a 911 is a lot more convoluted than buying a regular car.

Each case is different but, in general, getting a PPI on all but insanely underpriced cars hasn't been a problem for me. The really underpriced ones are almost always gone when I call/email.

Yeah if you are bargain shopping (I usually am) then you may have to take a chance and hope the low cost offsets any problems. Maybe try going after slightly over priced cars that are not getting as much action get a PPI and then negotiate?

I dont know what to tell you on the tow thing, if the tow was over $100 bucks and the PPI over $200 I would not be buying. I realize PPIs often cost more than that in many markets. As they say its Cheap Insurance if the car needs major engine work.

All that said all my purchases have been local and i am able to do my own PPIs or in one case the owner (a buddy) did the PPI with me. Hard to do on a remote sale.

PML,

Gee, I'd love somebody to have that attitude when selling my cars! While it is a sellers market, you shouldn't be that idiot who buys on instinct or self inspection. These cars can hide a whole host of very expensive problems, and you'd never find out until you got it home and started driving it around. And, the little niggling problems that aren't necessarily life threatening can mount up quickly....and expensively!

Sure, half the fun is working on these cars, but when push comes to shove, you need/want and solid car to start with...that is, one that isn't going to cost you a fortune right away.

Anybody who isn't willing to have their car inspected is either selling a very very desirable car at a very very high price, or is afraid of what the inspector might find. I'm not interested in either of those type of situations.

Have you tried the shops that fix these cars for potential cars that are for sale? I can think of two shops in your area to go and speak to. Have you looked in the local PCA classifieds? Even Panorama? Anyone remotely familiar with the club and the marque will understand the need for a PPI. If not, you're barking up the wrong seller, IMHO.

And EBAY? Gawd. I tried selling two cars there. What a cluster you know what. Low ballers, scams, Nigerian bankers...the worst.

Just as an aside, I had a PPI done in California on a car I'd never even seen. Bought it as a result. Car was better than expected.

Keep looking. Your car will show up.

Nick

The best thing you can do in these cases is be an informed buyer. There are some great books on the subject of buying a used 911 that points to what you should be looking for.

I did my own PPI and new what I was getting into. Records and receipts with the car help, as you can see what kind of repairs have been done and generally how the car was maintained.

The hard to identify problems, like broken head studs, aren't always found in a PPI anyway.

If I was selling and had a serious buying on the hook, I would have no problem pulling the lower valve covers one at a time to show intact head studs. Pulling a spark plug isn't a big deal and can sometimes show if it's getting oil in the cylinders. These are a couple examples.

Knowing what to look for and how to look is the key. If the seller isn't willing to let you look, he/she may have something to hide.

I never get a PPI. That's not my method.

I show up with cash, inspect the car myself for a half hour, take it for a drive, look over the title and paperwork, and then do a quick and easy, under market value deal with the seller.

I've found that tends to give sellers quite a bit of "flexibility" in price.

Then just lower your price. Once you get to the right price point, you'll have people showing up at your door with cash, ready to go.

Hard to buy a 911 easy these days. You need a knowledgeable person to assess car quickly and say all the right things to seller to show you are a serious buyer. A 911 broker perhaps? Guys like techweenie can tell from pictures whether it's advisable to see car in person, etc.

That said, I've a lot of free time here in the West and would gladly look at 911s or any classic car for that matter within 1000 miles or so for a small fee plus expenses....

Where are you located? Someone here would probably know where to have car taken to for PPI.

There are two strong independent Porsche specialists in his area....it's my area as well.

Good cars are hard to find. Bad cars are expensive to fix.

Nick

Its all about risk in my mind. I paid for 2 out of state PPIs only to find out the car was not for me. The first one came back with an estimated repair bill of $7k right off the bat. That scared me for sure. The second one showed some detailed pictures of a bad respray that I did not want to deal with. I was out about $600 at this point but glad I did not buy those cars. The third time was what I was looking for. I had a friend inspect and drive the car. Paid for yet another PPI. I even flew across the country to inspect it myself and pay for it.

Engine, transmission or bodywork can get into the multiple thousands very fast so you need to decide your acceptable risk level and what sorts of projects you are ok taking on. For me, that meant lots of spreadsheets :) The good news in the end, your car will be obvious and life is good. The chase is just part of the experience - if it was easy then it would not be so fun.

Usually when looking for a bargain on a Porsche you're going to get burned. I've never had a PPI done but mostly because the first time I was too stupid and after sorting that one out I knew enough about 944's to know the problem areas. When I bought my 912E I really didn't care if there were any problem areas other than rust because I plan on rebuilding everything. I would not buy any 911 without a PPI period.

Quite frankly, I find PPI's to be extra insurance, but highly overrated for the most part (at least, through present). I can understand getting compression, leakdown, and vacuum tests (as I can't bring my tools for those), but I have yet to find either Porsche techs or an independent shop doing PPI's who will go through the important particulars, not limited to:

- Body panel gaps (check alignment for panel removal/installation; possible indication of body damage)
- Chassis seams/welds (again, body damage check)
- Paint thickness (check for respray)
- Test of *all* electrical functions (proper operation)
- A true, spirited driving test (higher speeds, harder braking; some steering wobbles might appear at >side street speeds).
- Missing bits and bobs (ex. rear seat locks)
- Damaged bits and bobs (ex. rear speaker grilles)
- Extra bits and bobs (ex. additional switches/wiring apparent when compared to OEM)

Anymore, I go armed with data references of factory specs, and a knowledge of what to look for from mistakes in the past. Agree on a PPI scope of work, and see if it's worth it to you.

- Matthew

The first car I looked at a 1989 Carrera was a find. The PPI found a broken stud. The engine needed a top end. Best money "I wasted" ever. The car was priced very well, as the seller was unemployed for some time, but not with this problem.

Great point on the scope of work for the PPI. In my 3 PPIs, I found the scope of work and output to me was vastly different - technical info, pictures, documentation, etc. Be sure to discuss with the shop what they do and get some examples. I would tell them what you are looking for if they don't normally check for that.

In the end, my PPI on the car I bought was technically a failure - bad leak down. I think it was a erroneous test as car runs great so it really is just an extra data point but not 100% accurate.

Don't let the amount of attention a car gets dissuade you from sticking to your plan. The most recent car I looked at before I ended up with the one I bought had a PPI done for me and found all kinds of reasons to not get the car. I wanted it pretty bad, and the seller was a real nice dude.

The seller said there was tons of interest in it, primarily from guys who hadn't checked with their wives or bank. I think these cars get a disproportionate amount of attention because it's a dream for a lot of people. Point being that a serious buyer is worth doing a bit of work for.

You also need to use your gut. Talk to the seller and ask questions to make sure you get the information you need. If the seller doesn't want to take the time to make sure it's going to a good home, he probably didn't care much for the car in the first place. If I ever sell mine, I'll definitely be screening the buyers and be willing to take a bit less money and put in a bit more time if it's going to someone that will respect it and keep it thoroughly cared for.

I was impressed with some of your responses and opinions offered on other threads, so don't start worrying now.

One of the best threads, I will be short as I'm on my phone and find it hard to type. Laid up with 5th surgery on my ankle. Anyway I purchased my car about 14 yrs ago and did not get a PPI. I have worked on cars my whole life I'm (63) and felt I knew enough. P cars are another story, thankfully I have owned about nine VW's so that helped a bit with the engine. In my case I was very lucky owner was very upfront, tons of paperwork let me check everything I wanted and even let me drive it ALONE albeit he had my hard cash in hand. I got a great car and was lucky. Throughout the years replaced all the normal things that come up and feel that should I ever buy another I would pass on the PPI. I feel the knowledge I have gained with this car and my gut would steer me in the right direction.
Ernie 81sc

Well, my experience has been that having a PPI done will save you time and MONEY and headaches. My firs two PPI's included an 88 Carrera (asking 20k with 86k miles), which had basically TWO dangling pistons doing nothing. The other, a ONE owner 1984 Carrera with 90k miles had very low leak numbers, now if this does not matter to you, then go ahead and just buy the car sight-unseen, and have a good-nite.

I would never buy a car I hadn't driven. If you are a serious buyer the seller will know that you are and isn't after a joyride.
The car should be registered, that's a given.

But, if the car is obviously cheap and under valued all bets are off! :)

no ppi.. no sale
i've run about 8 cars through PPI's now, in all cases the seller was happy to drop the car off. the ppi report is just as useful to them as it is for you.

The original question is not whether a PPI is a good idea. He asked HOW do you make it happen.

In my limited experience, the seller has to be willing to cooperate (as in no other offers) and you have to be a serious buyer.

The best way to know if you seriously want that 911 is to look at lots of 911s -- read lots of books -- and when you show up, decide if the car is in the zone of acceptable. Then make an offer dependent on passing a PPI and if the seller refuses, then move on.

If it costs you $500+ to tow it/inspect it, that is money well spent to save $5,000 in repairs you are not ready to pay. Consider spending that money as a taste of things to come -- cause owning a 911 is a costly hobby.
Good luck, most people don't regret it.
SCOTT

Most cars are unregistered. Most are being sold by flippers.

I agree that a low priced car will sell within a week, so you gotta move.
A car priced about $25k is going to sit longer, and can have a PPI arranged.

No need to sell me on a PPI. I am trying to make one happen, not justify it.
I have basic DIY skills, but have zero experience with 911s.
Spending $500 on a PPI to avoid a $25k money pit disaster is a no-brainer for me.

PML,
Happy to go look at a car with you anytime.
Nick

As others have asked - Where do you live? When I was shopping 2 years ago, there were numerous cars here in Oregon within easy driving range, all were registered. None were offered by flippers. All of the sellers I talked with in person were willing to work with me on PPI.

I will admit that a quick search today of the same sources I used when I found my car did not find nearly as many cars as I found 2 years back, and all of them seem considerably higher priced than they were back then. Maybe things have changed in two years.

Simple. You're looking in the wrong place at the wrong price point.
If all the cars you have looked at are being sold by people looking to make some quick cash it's because the car has been sold to a flipper because the P.O knew it needed money spent to fix it. They sell it to a flipper cheap who gives it a quick clean up but no money is spent to fix the real problems the car has.

Cheap cars are cheap for a reason. There is a running joke on another forum I'm on..

Some good thoughts here. As far as making the PPI happen, I would say:

1. As soon as you identify a car, get the local PPI shop lined up. Call the shop ahead of time.

2. Put it on the buyer - part of the deal requires them getting the car to the PPI. if they can't do that, just move on.

3. Be patient. This is the best car buying advice there is. I am amazed how often stuff I have looked at buying: cars, motorcycles, houses, boats, etc that seemed like they were about to disappear off the market if I didn't buy that day were still there for weeks and even months later. They made a lot of 911s. Another one will come along.

I've read a lot of threads on this forum, and I've seen this quote many times, but the number used has usually been $20k, $25k, or more recently 30k.
And I totally agree with this. I'd much rather pay more up front for a better car. It's cheaper in the long run.
But, $50k might be where I draw the line. At that price point, I'd rather buy a true collector's 60's muscle or a modern sports car like the 997.

I'm looking on Pelican, CL, and Ebay.

I agree with the flipper issue, and that is exactly why I will not buy from one.
The PO sold it cheap enough to make it worth the flipper's while.
So, with a flipper, either you're going to grossly overpay (if he paid market)
or, if it's priced fairly, he got it for a steal (for a good reason)

I have only run into a couple cars being sold by flippers. Most are private owners and more than happy to PPI if you are serious. I have been seriously shopping for about 2-3 months

Yes, absolutely. Especially for a car that I don't really even need.
I am simply taking my time, watching ads, trying to learn about 911's, and asking some "dumb" questions.

A car being sold by a flipper is a seller who has a vested interest in keeping problems hidden. He is not going to be interested in allowing you get a PPI when he can wait on an uninformed sucker to come by his turd.

That said, I tend to disagree with the statement that most cars being sold are being sold by flippers. Maybe if eBay and Craigslist are where you shop that is true, but there are a ton of other resources out there to find cars. There's this cool place called pelican parts that is one of them.

And visit our Marketplace forum where we discuss specific cars and values. You will see the flippers called out and the good guys (some of them value added resellers like Techweenie) pointed out.

If any seller refuses me a request at a PPI, which is general accompanied by a $1000 deposit by check, then I'm gonna move on. He's hiding something.

If I were looking for a good 911, I wouldn't bother with Craigslist or eBay. I'd look on Pelican, Rennlist, the PCA web site, the Excellence magazine web site, the web sites of independent dealers that specialize in Porsches and I'd probably search newspaper and other listings with a site like cars.com.

JR

I was told in another thread so avoid PCA classifieds since the cars are grossly overpriced by overzealous owners. Since you have to pay, it wasn't a hard sell to look elsewhere. I'm not interested in a $45k car with 20k miles. How much does it cost to read the PCA classifieds? Can anyone verify if that's a place to buy a reasonably priced car? It feels silly to join PCA just to read classifieds.

Is an indep. dealer the same as a flipper?
Flip one car, you're a sleazy flipper.
Flip 20 cars, and you're a respected dealer?
The dynamics are the same, no? Both get the car for cheap, for a reason.
If they paid market, you won't be. Seems like not an ideal place to buy from.
People are told to avoid flippers, but should you also avoid dealers like "Bob's Motorsport"?

Not bothering with CL would be a huge mistake. I can see skipping ebay though. Pelican/Rennlist/Autotrader/Cars.com are all good spots too

There are a lot of people on this forum that hate the PCA, so take their comments with a grain of salt. There are some nice cars sold by PCA members. I wouldn't dismiss it as a source. The cost of joining is less than a half tank of gas. If you don't want to pony up for that, stop by a decent Porsche shop once a month. Lots of their owners are PCA members and they often have free issues of Panorama laying around.

As for the "overpriced" cars, there will always be some of those. Having said that, the official "opinion" of 911 values held by a large number of Pelican members has been well behind the appreciation curve of these cars. I think these guys are now getting a wake-up call (see the current thread on SC and Carrera values). You have to decide what is the right price for you. Personally, I don't buy the best deal I can find, I buy the best car. Cheaper in the long run...


Not even close. One sells cars for a living and the other is a scumbag.

I'm talking about the good dealers, the ones that vet the cars they buy and know them well. Yes, they buy them at less than retail and the guys they buy them from know this. Business 101. Having said that, they can often get more money for a car if you're on the selling end, as they have a short list of guys looking for a car. The really good cars never see the market.

Here's a few sources compiled by someone else:

Porsche For Sale Links

Look, it's simple.

1. If the seller will not agree to a PPI for ANY reason, walk away. If the shop is an hour away, too bad for him. He has to realize it's going to make it harder for him to sell.

2. Except in extreme cases, the purpose of a PPI is to determine how much, if any, should be marked down off of the ALREADY NEGOTIATED PRICE. You do not pay for a PPI until you and the seller have agreed on a price first, and you agree that if anything significant is found that the price can be renegotiated. If the shop says it needs a $10k engine overhaul, then ask if the seller will take $10k less. If he says no, walk away. If the shop says it needs $500 for this or that, then just knock off $500 from your agreed price and write him the check. The point is, you do not get a PPI until you have decided you want the car and agreed on a price.

3. If you can't drive the car, or if the seller won't let you, walk away.

4. Ebay is a horrible place to either buy or sell a car. Forget that idea right away. Craigslist is okay, but only if the car is local and you can see it in person. Just because an ebay auction ends with a winner doesn't mean the car actually gets paid for. A huge portion of those end up as non-paying bidders. Look on Pelican, Rennlist, PCA, Autotrader and Cars.com.

5. If a particular car has a boatload of people fighting over it, the seller isn't going to make things easy for you and you are not going to get a good deal on it. Give the seller your name and number, and tell him to call you if he doesn't sell it to one of the fools that are bidding it up.

6. Under NO circumstances rush into buying a car because you're afraid someone else will buy it if you don't move fast. That's a great way to make a very expensive mistake.

7. Javadog is correct, good, original cars are getting scarce and the prices have risen dramatically for them. The market is full of cars that are modded, high mileage, or have a list of issues and those are the ones that go for prices in the teens. Pay a good price for a good car and your ownership experience will be positive. Buy a bargain car and you'll likely regret it.

Complete nonsense. PCA owners are enthusiasts and you'll have a good chance of finding a good car from one of them. Asking prices are not selling prices!

Why does Pelican hate PCA?
I sort of assumed it was the same people.

Great advice about avoiding a bad car.
Lots of great advice in this thread.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

I had several ppi's on 993's before I finally found the right one. The first car needed a top end rebuild at 91k miles.
2nd car had mickey mouse work done on it. Last one had a top end at 69k which I bought below market value.

I found my 993 on pelican.