Aftermarket Engine Management Systems...

[WydRyd]

Has anyone here performed an aftermarket EMS installation on their 3.2 Carrera, or 964?

Just after some idea of what's involved and the installation costs etc?

I hear that the latest Motec and Haltech EMS can interface with the existing harness for a factory finish, thus reducing installation time running new wiring & sensors etc.

I really want to go to a Pressure Sensing setup to optimize my fuel & ignition maps for max efficiency/performance.

Advice?

Ciao,

Merv
'89 Carrera Cab

[obrut]

Hey Merv

Have you thought about a unichip? They sit on the top of your existing setup and are apparently very flexible. A buddy just put a TT in his 96 Carrera 4s and was happy with the tune after the unichip went in.

I think APS are the people to speak to www.airpowersystems.com.au . They got a rave write up in Motor a few months back and the owner has a bunch of P-cars.

Cheers - Ryan

[WydRyd]

G'day Ryan,

That looks like a viable option. Thanks!

I wonder whether they can adapt pressure sensing electronics to the factory Motronics tho? If so, how would it work?

The reason why I considered Motec/Haltech is because it's a standalone system with all the MAP (i.e: Manifold Absolute Pressure) electronics stuff built into the one ECU and offers more programmable points across the rev range, thus a more refined setup.

However, I'll make contact with UniCHIP and suss it out further.

Cheers mate,

Merv.

[juan ruiz]

Merv,
I can reccomend www.DTA.COM I have drive cars with this systems and is awesome as you know the shop that I use is a Dealer for them and this specific system has a
LAUNCH CONTROL SYSTEM nothing in the market has this feature the wiring harness connect to ours,from all the cars that roll in & out of the shop this is the information that I have from the owners point of view

1)MOTEC everyones agree the Best BUT $$$$ Be ready

2)DTA Launch control sets them away from the rest with all the other features.

3)Electromotive Hard to tune up at times,very popular but must people wish they had invested in the DTA.Recently with a new series out.

4)Halatech, Roof Idle old fashion system,trouble at times with the coils.

5) The rest well thats what they are back of the pack

Of course each one will claim that theirs is better than the other guys but I have seen all 4 of them and I have drive cars with them

this is just my 0.02 from my corner.

Regards Juan
3.2 Undercover Undersurgery

[juan ruiz]

Sorry wrong link I have to find the correct one

[WydRyd]

Thanks for the feedback Juan. I'll look into all options

I'm told, with all things being equal (on a turbo setup), you will net approx 25-30hp or so with just the Pressure Sensing conversion.

However, the biggest improvement is in the boost response and drivability. Apparently, the car feels like it has a 50% larger engine in it with the pressure sensing setup

[juan ruiz]

Merv,
Be carefull with EVERYONES HP CLAIMS,remenber it took every bit of my turbo to go 85hp! so I can't imagine 30 hp alone just with the pressure sending.for some reason all the 911 hot rods that I seen not one have had this done BUT each one has a Management system of some source ,What is this telling us?

[WydRyd]

Juan, those power claims did not come from just any EMS vendor as such. It actually came from a couple of reputable tuners who use a variety of pressure sensing EMS's. You have to remember, we use the restrictive and slow responding Air Flow Meter in our setups, so a less restrictive and more efficient intake will have positive effects on top-end HP and overall drivability & tunability.

[A Quiet Boom]

I've been investigating SDS standalone system http://www.sdsefi.com as a cost effective alternative to others on the market. Might be worth a look.

As an aside I've been helping my brother-in-law install a 2.3l turbo Ford into his '73 TVR 2500M and he purchased an Electromotive system for it. I'm not very impressed with it especial since the coil packs are mounted directly on top of the computer meaning it has to be mounted in the engine compartment rather than the passenger compartment where I'd prefer to mount it.

[Sean Hamilton]

I'd reckon your engine "manages" quite well .... to melt bitumen, all on it's own Merv.

[Langers]

merv, merv, merv, when are you going to put this beast of an engine into an early car?

[WydRyd]

LOL @ Sean. All I can say is, there's always room for improvement

Langers, isn't an '89 Carrera early enough fer ya?

QuietBoom, I also heard good things about SDSEFI and bad things about Electromotive. Will check out the SDS tho. Thanks.

[juan ruiz]

AS Promise............

www.dtafast.co.uk

[beepbeep]

I've been checking out this a lot and SDS offers everything you need minus "gizmos" , for a lot less $$$ ...

[dean]

Merv,

I think you should go for the SDS system. You could be our guinne pig. woops, I wasn't supposed to say that out loud.

[juan ruiz]

Merv,I went to my tuner and as always we had the pep talk he explain that he has change over 5 of them yes they are cheap but very troublesome to tune you can only do one setting at the time so you must go back and foward countless time to get it properly.

So as a good HP CITIZEN I went to work right a way I contacted the SDS and ask them to compare the 2 systems DTA vs SDS and heres the replay;

Our systems have been installed on many 911s see our Project Page at
http://www.sdsefi.com. The DTA is a more high end system price and options wise
and quite complicated to program. Otherwise both systems will make the same
power pretty much.

Im not trying to CHANGE ANYONES MIND Im just passing along the inf,you be the Judge,BUT I will tell you when I get mine installed.

[ChrisBennet]

Has anyone tried Autronic ?
I think I read someplace that Autronics was started by one of the founders of Motec.

Something they offer that sounds very interesting was their hands free automatic tuning option:

All Autronic ECU's are available with the optional AutoTune chip and software which enables hands free tuning with no input is required from the user other than running the engine through its various RPM and load sites.

-Chris

[WydRyd]

Thanks for the info Juan. I'll look into the SDS.

Chris, I have heard of Autronic's Auto-Tune function, which looks to be quite an impressive package as a whole. I wonder how good the auto-tune actually works tho? I mean, there are so many rpm points vs load vs ignition vs pressure points ?!?!?

Autronic, like Motec & Haltech is an Australian made product

Motec's M48 Clubman sells for $2.4k (AUD) and can interface with the existing Motronic's harness and utilise the OEM sensors. The only extra sensor required is the MAP sensor and wiring.

Given it's proven track record, I'm leaning towards a Motec solution so far, but I'll certainly look at the other systems in greater depth.

Apparently, you can run slightly more boost with a MAP based setup VS an AFM setup because it allows all the boost pressures/vacuum settings to be individually optimized

P.S: I just received my new Haltech HalTuner A/F Mixture Meter All those LED's will look pretty funky in the cockpit. Just call me Michael Knight

[CamB]

What Chris said - how about Autronic?

I was discussing this yesterday with people who know (I was listening as I know very very little (in fact, enough only to get me into trouble)).

They mentioned Autronic is an ex-MoTeC founder, and he has kept on the development trail (apparently MoTeC are standing still a little).

[Randy W]

Two years ago I had a Motec M48 and CD unit installed to manage MAP, fuel and ignition of the normally aspirated stock longblock 3.2L with 993 MAF and adapted Varioram in my '72 911 T/RS look. It has all the tables and sensor inputs that I have needed so far, now runs perfectly and gave me a 40 plus HP improvement on the dyno. Both units with harness were about 4K, and the install/tuning was another 2K. It took four months from ordering to shipping from Motec, reportedly due to being in line for harness construction. The install took two months and was held up due to a crossed wire and inadequate customer service from Motec. A map was not supplied with the unit and many hours of road testing and dyno time were required to achieve maximum performance. The Motec once installed and tuned is probably the best, but their customer support is not. Another customer of my mechanic, who did the installation and tuning, had an Autronic installed on his normally aspirated 2.8L at the same time and also ran into problems during tuning, including a persistant problem with idle stabilization due to insufficient input/tuning variables with the Autronic unit. Supposedly the current or soon to be released version from Autronic addresses this problem. The Auto tune reportedly works well, but you still need to do some manual tuning as well - you cannot approach these systems or how they work entirely logically.

All of the EMS systems require extensive tuning to achieve the desired results - this includes several trips to the dyno and sometimes alot of patience on the part of the customer. Would I do it again? Yes, but I might not have said that two years ago....