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Leland Pate's Avatar
 
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Question Alignment tomorrow.... what should I set it at?

Well, I have reserved the alignment rack at the hobby shop for 4 hours tomorrow, so that should give me plenty of time to sit and play with it.

The computer has all of the specific factory specs for my car in it, but I want a little more "experienced" info from you guys...

I'm really worried that I'm not going to be able to get the front camber adjustment even close becasue of the amount that the car has been lowered.
Someone told me that it is ok to "wollow" out the shock mounting holes to allow for more movement. Is this the case?

ALso, when I lowered the rear spring plates, did this change the camber setting? I didn't mess with the actual camber eccentric, but there seems to visually be more negative camber to both rear tires now.

I'm trying to find a good, streetable compromise here.

What is the maximum degrees of negative camber that I can run that isn't going to totally eat up my tires within 3000 miles?

Many of you gave me some pretty good tips on the toe in/out settings, and I think that will be the easy part.
The caster shouldn't be a problem... it's just the camber that worries me.

Is there anything else I should concern myself with???


Thanks, as usual,
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Old 08-21-2002, 07:50 PM
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I think you want 0.5 degrees more negative camber in the rear. When I had my car corner balanced and aligned I had them set it up for street/track. I have -0.8 degrees in the front and -1.3 degrees in the back. I plan to go to -1.0 and -1.5 next time but I have no complaints about it now. The car is great on the track and street and I haven't had any abnormal tire wear. The track ate my tires but they were wearing fine on the street.
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Old 08-21-2002, 07:58 PM
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Don's camber settings sound about right to me...but Lee, your earlier spring plate adjustments? Look at everything...including toe...front and rear. Your hand skills are far above mine. But me? I hire pros for alignment. The Voodoo science factor...
Old 08-21-2002, 08:32 PM
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Leland, I went to the place recommended by JW and told him I wanted a daily driver that is set up for sport and AX. I wanted a really responsive car, I told him. I got that, but I am thinking I'd like more toe in. Like yours (though perhaps not as severe), my car is a bit unstable at higher speeds and it does not like to just go in a straight line. I think a tad more toe in would solve my problem. Also, the shop corner balanced the car while they were at it, and it is set up for a 165-lb driver. That is why the left and right specs are not identical. Presumably they are when I sit in the car. Before I removed my A/C that is. Folks that understand alignment will LOL when they see the "previous" specs.

Previous Front
Camber L -0.39 R 0.14
Caster L 6.48 R 6.87
Toe L -5.2mm R -2.1mm

Previous Rear
Camber L -1.51 R -2.53
Toe L 0.0 R 0.0

Current Front
Camber L-0.86 R -0.78
Caster L 6.69 R 6.71
Tow L 0.0mm R 0.0mm

Current Rear
Camber L -1.58 R -1.50
Toe L 0.0 R 0.0
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Old 08-21-2002, 08:43 PM
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Bump. Can't believe this thread was on Page 3 today. I think we should show more respect for Chancellor Pate and besides, I really do think some folks will be amused at my old alignment specs. Good luck today, Leland.
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Old 08-22-2002, 10:29 AM
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Thanks for the stats Jim.

I've printed this out and am going to take it over there with me today.

Does anyone have any more imput about "wollowing" out the strut tower mounting holes to allow for more adjustment?
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Old 08-22-2002, 10:46 AM
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I wouldn't try opening up the holes. I think the camber restiction is because of the mounting plate. The plate can only move so far before it hits the strut tower. I've heard the only way to increase camber adjustment is to change to a monoball plate.
If you're setting up for street/track, you shouldn't need more than -1.0 camber in front. That shouldn't be a problem with the factory holes.
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Old 08-22-2002, 10:59 AM
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I want to raise my car to the correct height, and I plan to do this myself. I'll corner balance it too, but my questions are about alignment.

How do you find a hobby shop alignment rack?

What are the costs?

Is this something I should leave to the professionals (they want $250)?

The PO said he did his own alignment, turns out it was just toe-in.

Thanks.
Old 08-22-2002, 11:02 AM
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If you need to remove material it all depends on which way you need to move the camber.

My car had been lowered and I was having trouble setting the camber low enough with the shocks all the way out in the towers. Here is where I "wallowed":



I did a thread on this but damned if I can locate it.
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Old 08-22-2002, 11:12 AM
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you cant get into much trouble by opening up the holes for the strut and mounting bolts.. the strut mounting plate willl run into the shock tower.

If you get the car on a lift get a strong light and look up the strut tower and see how much room is available between the mount and the inboard side of the strut tower, you could then see about how much movement is available and open all the holes up that amount.
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Old 08-22-2002, 12:51 PM
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I'd agree that you should be able to get the negative camber you (should) want without removing material. I'll warn you again that I wish my car had just a tad bit of toe in in the front. It was set up without any because the guy listened to me when I said I want the car to snap-steer in AX events. But this causes twitchiness at speed...not good. Perhaps about a degree of toe in. Then what happens is that 'road forces' push the front wheels outward so that they are more precisely parallel while driving. Mine would be facing slightly outward, causing the wandering.
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Old 08-22-2002, 12:58 PM
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I'm actually worried about positive camber adjustment....

With the significant amount that i've dropped the front suspension at the torsion adjustment bolt, I'm worried that I've in effect, created too much negative camber... and that the factory mounting holes won't allow for enough correction to the geometry.


Thoughts???
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Old 08-22-2002, 01:15 PM
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Leland the mounting holes can be elongated in either direction. What limits the amount of travel after you slot the holes a bit is the strut tower, the strut mounting plate will run into the tower (whether inboard or outboard)
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Old 08-22-2002, 01:19 PM
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Todd Serota, the guy who runs the Tracquest Drivers Ed events posted what he thought to be good SC alignment specs on the Rennlist 911 mailing list a while back.

Quote:
Re negative camber, if you want to reduce understeer, use the same
amount of negative camber in the front as in the rear. 1.5 degrees
negative is an aggressive street setting, which I recommend, but it will
cause some premature wear on the insides of your tires. If this is a
concern, use 1.25 degrees negative all around. I run 2 degrees negative
all around and I definitely suffer with premature wear on the insides of
my tires because of all of the street driving I do.

Re toe, you're not going to like any toe out in front on the street.
Even 0 toe can be a bit annoying, depending on the kinds of roads you
have in your area. I run 1/32" of toe-in in front, which is very
livable but still provides great turn-in. In the rear, 5/32" of toe-in
seems like a lot. I run 1/16", which I think is very common on 911's.
If you changed the ride height, you probably changed the toe, by changing the angle of the tie rods to the steering rack. If you managed to get some toe out, that could explain the twitchyness.

Tom
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Old 08-22-2002, 01:25 PM
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Leleand

You are describing the exact problem I experienced.

There are three places that can limit adjustment range.

The limiting factor in my case was the size of the "big hole" in the tower and material was removed as shown to open it up, maybe 1/8 inch or so.

The next likely factor as pointed out by others is the bottom of the plate running into the side of the tower. I don't think you can fix that one except by going to camber plates (fyi, keep a future eye on those crafty boys at Elephant for a slick solution!)

The other place that can limit travel is the holes for the camber plate bolts. Those holes can also be opened up a bit if needed.

You just need to look and see which of these items is your limiting factor.
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Old 08-22-2002, 01:45 PM
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Okay, I just had one of those "Oh yeah" experiences. If Leland lowered the front, and if my assumptions are correct (that the tie rods angle down, and connect with the wheel behind rather than in front of the axle, a safe assumption) then the act of lowering the front would have increased toe out. Causing wandering. Duh.
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Old 08-22-2002, 03:24 PM
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Leland,
Whatever you did please let us know the results. I just replaced front A-arm bushing (Thanks Chuck Moreland - Excellent article, I added the zerks as well), New neatrix in the rear, new torsion bars 21/26, turbo tie- rods and a bump steer kit. Also lowered her to 25 in the rear and 25.5 in the front.
I've been up to my elbows for a week. Oh not to mention fixing the steering bushing and putting a short shift kit in.

I was going to the alignment shop this weekend myself and would be real interested in the results.
I did some searching and had written down some target numbers I was going to set to :
Front - Toe (0), Camber (-1 deg), Caster 6 deg.
Rear - Toe(-15 minutes), Camber (-1deg)

I'm open for any comments, the car will be used on street and has 7 & 8 Fuchs with 205/55 R16 Front and 225/50 R16 Rear, Tire pressure at 32 front and 35 rear.

I would love to have some feedback as well. Thanks folks...
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Old 08-22-2002, 06:17 PM
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lee

you got ba's book?

i'm pretty sure it gives some specs. my copy's at home and i my home pc's busted so can't get back til monday now.

i was going to start with his suggestions. my shop keeps records of the alignment so that you can try different settings and always get back to where you started. (i believe you got that as well).
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Old 08-22-2002, 11:30 PM
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Guys:
No real issues here except...
Superman.. you want to shoot for one degree of toe-in ?? What?

Yeaah...you want "some"...maybe 15 "minutes" total ( 1/4 degree). A full degree?..I don't think so, IMHO !
Old 08-23-2002, 04:57 AM
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Well here's the latest....

I think we screwed up.



It took us so long to get thgings going right yesterday that we only messed with the rear alignment.

The guy who operates the hobby shop is a real nice fellow - but he doesn't have a clue when it comes to porsches. He couldn't really grasp why I'd even want a little negative camber...

All the same, I took his word as gospel because he definately knew more than me when it comes to operating the rack.

After he looked at the adjusting bolts on the spring plates (camber and toe) he said we needed to raise the rear tires off the ground to make the adjustments.... becasue with the weight on the tires wouldn't allow for any adjustment... so he raised it up and then we proceded to dial in all of the adjustments.

After 3 1/2 hours of cursing and wishing we had the right tools (12MMM allen socket) we finally got everything aligned.

The specs with the car in the air were as follows:

Camber L- 1.4

Camber R- 1.4

Toe L- 0.00

Toe R- 0.05 (as close as we could get it)


I thought everything was fine until we lowered it back down to get it off the rack... I could really see ALLOT of negative camber and I went to look at the computer display again... our 1.4 degrees on either side jumped to 3.5 degrees!

I guess i had thought that they had somehow calibrated it for the adjustment in the air... I no longer think this is the case.
When i asked him about it, he said, "well, yeah, when you put weight on the tires, it's going to cause them to push out" .... .... Well DU'H!!!

I thought they knew what they were doing... oh well, it only cost me $22.

So now I have a car with 3.5 degrees of camber in the rear... I'm going to try and correct this today. But first, I want some more information from you do-it-yerself-aligners.

The computer only said to loosen the camber and toe bolts to make adjustments... my Bentley books said to loosen those two *plus* the two other banana arm securing bolts... Is this nessecary?

Secondly, what is the sequence of events here?
Are you supposed to remove the tire every time you make an adjustment?
They told me that wan't practical because you lose you readings every time you remove the "
"laser wheel attachment thingie".
So, were we wrong to make these adjustments while the car was up in the air?

If so, what's the way to do it?

If not, how do you make adjustments to the camber and toe bolts with the weight of the car resting on them? We couldn't budge them, that's why he said we needed to do it up in the air.


Ideas?
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Old 08-23-2002, 06:19 AM
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