Are you f*&?//#!!ing kidding me?

[Pasophisto]

'87 3.2 coupe.
So I'm looking at the air con compressor- weight, up high, aft, and realizing that it doesn't blow cold anyway, and I haven't turned on A/C in any of my cars in a dozen years, and thinking about fans and ducting and weight and complexity, and the good old days of simple cars and why I own this thing in the first place and of course that leads me to looking here to see what's involved in losing some of the clearly redundant heating, AC and ventilation system. And there are how many fans? How many metres of ducting? How many valves? how much does this stuff weigh? Passenger footwell, smuggler's box, under the dash, under the windshield, in the engine compartment, heater boxes, compressors, and a partridge in a pear tree? It's truly great and I am appreciative for all of the wisdom that we have on this site, but has anyone actually looked up from the microfische long enough to ask if the designers/engineers are laughing their behinds off at us? I think I can build a small one-man submarine out of the components used to blow air through my car. Doesn't anyone roll down their windows in Germany? Is there a shortcut/short answer to what to do and what not to do? Was the ventilation system in the space shuttle any more complex?

[Tippy]

I have the same car and I can honestly say, the ventilation system seems more complex than the MegaSquirt EFI I put in it.

It scares me.....

[pors1968]

I have a 964 and i seems so complex whith all the electric motor and computor and no room to work and i have two 68 whith nothing only two manuel trap.

[jlynch1960]

It's called packaging. You start with a fairly simple small car designed in early 1960s, the price goes up, the customer base expands to include people who want heat they can actually control, AC, comfort seats, power this and power that and you have to find someplace to put it all without changing the size or shape of the body.

Park an early 911 next to one of today's models and be amazed at the difference in size and bulk. The "radio" alone is probably 8-10 times larger/heavier in the current model.

Is it progress? Up to you to decide that, but I recently sold a Cayman S that came with a three plus inch stack of owner's manuals (you need a 15 year old kid to explain it to you) and picked up an 84 Carrera because of it's relative simplicity.

[hcoles]

This (different) subject might be on another thread, but reminds me of an issue I see coming.
The issue is the maintainability/ownership as the newer cars age.
I contend the simplicity of the older more simple cars allows reasonable/doable repair without specialized equipment.
In 25 years how easy will it be to debug and fix a 2013 Carrera?

[71scgc]

Removing AC is my favorite first job on project cars.
Sport car with AC? No longer a sport car.

Carter

[Iciclehead]

The ventilation system is truly a work of engineering over good sense. I sort of perversely like mine, what with all the parts that, each on their own, make perfect sense but which in aggregate is more than a little insane.

On the other hand, I can diagnose and fix it all by myself, could manufacture parts if needed and generally it transforms the car from something the wife won't ride in to something she prefers to take.

So it is worth the sacrifice in purity...

Dennis

[Jack Stands]

When I compare my 84 Targa to my 70 914-6, they seem like a Cadillac next to a Model T Ford. The amount of extra 'stuff' that was added is truly baffling.

For the heating system, I hope to backdate my Targa to the older style SSI heat exchangers when the current ones need replacement. My old 75 Targa stayed plenty warm with just the engine fan pushing air through the heat exchangers, and if it wasn't enough, you simply dropped down a gear! Somehow folks just don't understand the early Porsche ventilation/ heating system.

[wayner]

My car has headers, so no option for heat, and I live in Canada.

I have seen posts with modern gas fired cab heaters but at almost two thousand dollars, that option just seemed too far out of reach for what is economical and sensible, so I began looking into SSI's flipped 993 headers and all sorts of other contraptions to move heat form the exhaust to the cabin (for me) and defrost (for the windshield).

All of the sudden simple gas powered heater located in the smugglers box seems like an inexpensive and simple option.

Possibly as simple as the functional rear quarter windows on my early car are for cooling the cabin (accentuated by removing the clock from its position in the dash and unleashing a flow of fresh air directed towards my body when needed).

[Chuck.H]

For me, it's all about balance - Sure, I'd love an Arial Atom, but the actual days that it could be driven comfortably are very low.

So I have a balance of 'pure sports car' with enough comforts to make it usable in as many weather challanged days as possible, and for that I need heat and simple A/C where I live. I have an R134 conversion with a large (GM sourced) blower fan with an on/off switch; no room for subtly, A/C is FULL ON or off.

Chuck.H
'89 TurboLookTarga, 369k miles

[Josh D]

Please, cry me a river.....

I rebuilt my entire A/C system with new and improved components. It wasn't that difficult of a job and it works great. I need A/C in AZ to daily drive in the summer.

I backdated my heat and still use the auto heat controller. It works great. No need to freeze in the winter and have a towel handy to defog the windows.

And my car is still under 2500 lbs, so don't give me that "no sports car should have A/C" bull.

Apparently some of you haven't worked on the vacuum controlled emissions on any '70s/'80s era carburated V8 domestic cars. You have no idea what complex is. I daily drove an '88 Jeep Wagoneer. There must have been 5 miles of vacuum hoses under the hood, and half dozen vacuum and thermal switches.

My wife's '04 6.0 diesel Ford Excursion has developed a nasty oil leak that is more than likely coming from the ICP sensor. It's located below and behind the turbo on top of the engine. It will take me a few hours dismantling stuff on top of the engine just to get to the small sensor. It's rediculous.

To replace the rear shocks on my E39 BMW 528i you had to pull out the whole rear interior! Rediculous!

We have it pretty darn good with these old 911s. It's about as simple as it gets. If you don't think so, try working on some of the other stuff out there and then you will realize.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Pasophisto

......and a partridge in a pear tree?

Holiday season theme? I like it.

Over the river, and through the wood—
and straight through the barnyard gate,

Barnyard gate is the expansion valve. :-)

[javadog]

The HVAC systems weren't all that complex, or hard to repair. Most people just fail to learn anything about them. They were very versatile for their time and allowed a much greater amount of control, compared to other cars from the same era.

Is there a technical question coming, or is this just another thread we can live without?

JR

[r-mm]

I'd describe the HVAC system on the 911 as having a preoccupation with honesty.

The heat comes from the back of the car. It has its own ducting and its own blowers. No one would design the heat on a rear engine air cooled car any differently.

The ventilation comes from the front of the car. Same logic applies.

At this juncture the designers could have added a "brain" which obscures the two-independent-systems nature of the beast and simply gives you buttons for hot-cold-how-much-blowing, but they kept them separate, which ultimately I like. I do think the graphics on the "head unit" are unnecessarily confusing. All my comments are about pre-964s.

Okay so that's H & V. Add AC to the mix and yeah, it gets crazy. I took mine out also and absolutely love the added space in the engine bay.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by 71scgc

Removing AC is my favorite first job on project cars.
Sport car with AC? No longer a sport car.

Carter

Do you consider a car with less than 300 hp to be a "sports car"?

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

Do you consider a car with less than 300 hp to be a "sports car"?

Be nice.

Like me.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

Be nice.

Like me.

Ha ha - you're my role model, Bob!

I just can't resist when guys spout off about "no sports car has a/c, etc." when their "sports car" would have its doors blown off by most econo boxes on the road today. All in good fun, right?

[G50911]

they say that german "over-engineering" is methodically thought out and there's always a reason for something. in the case of the hvac system of 911's i call bullsh&T

[GH85Carrera]

No doubt the AC on a 911 is a factory add on to a car designed with no AC. With help from Griffith's my AC will keep me cool in Savannah GA in August or in Oklahoma all summer long. The stock heat will roast yer peanuts within a few miles in zero degree weather. The system flat works on my 911.

I drove an un-air conditioned 914 for 25 years. BTDT. I am never driving a car with no AC again. I autocross my 911 and I even take it on long road trips. It is not just a after work in the evening or weekend toy.

For all those that rip out the AC power to ya. It is your car do what you want to it.

The AC system is NOT that complex. It is in fact easy to work on. Get some gauges and do a little reading and you will see how easy it really is.

What other car can you run both the AC & the heater at the same time?

[Jerome74911S]

Originally Posted by hcoles

This (different) subject might be on another thread, but reminds me of an issue I see coming.
The issue is the maintainability/ownership as the newer cars age.
I contend the simplicity of the older more simple cars allows reasonable/doable repair without specialized equipment.
In 25 years how easy will it be to debug and fix a 2013 Carrera?

The above idea is a corollary of the OP's idea. I find my bicycle to be too complex, but then details like going up hills, and stopping enter the equation, so my bike needs some complication in order to cope with the real world.

As for an automobile, staying warm enough to have hands that can actually grasp the car's controls is important, as is being able to see out of the windows, so in today's real world a small bit of automotive complication is required, too. Before cars had fripperies like tops, or windows, or heaters, they didn't go fast enough to get into as much trouble as you can quickly find with an old 911, so we need to defrost whatever needs thawing out, lest we get stopped by the cops for having frozen-over windshields (this happened to me). And, I appreciate that people who live in Arizona want to drive around in the summer now and then without suffering instant desiccation, so AC might be useful there for more delicate souls.

Plus we like simplicity, fixability, light weight. Mostly we are older guys who remember the good old days when people were tougher - but not as tough as those sainted folks driving around in the winter in 1903 - when men were men, and women were strong, etc.

These concepts are central to vintage Porsche ownership and there is no getting away from this debate. If I wanted an automatic-everything car, I'd buy a new(er) one.

There are already threads on this form of navel-gazing, but it remains a worthy topic.