Is Welding Difficult To Learn?
 

Okay, I have a stripped 17mm drain plug on the bottom of my tranny and I am still having trouble getting it off. Tried chisels, tried JBWelding the socket to the inside, tried drilling opposite holes and torqing it off...and so now I am ready to try my hand at welding a nut on the thing and remove it properly. I would take it to a shop for this procedure, but the car is not driveable. Soooo....I have never welded anything in my life and I barely passed shop class in Junior High (and that was in the 70's)....I see these DIY welding kits at stores for around $200. All I want to do is afix a nut to a drain plug. Is this within the realm of reality? I've kind of always wanted to learn to weld anyway. So now seems like a good time.

Thanks,

For welding a nut on a plug, using a MIG welder, it basically a "point and shoot" operation. Very easy. If you didn't do good, the nut will break right off and you get more welding practice.

IMO your situation is not the time or place to learn how to weld. Either find a welder that will come to your car with their equipment or tow/flat bed your car to a shop. Jim

Jim Sims, that is very wise advice. I think I shall incorporate both replies and take a good, long breather. First I'll buy a basic MIG welder kit and then I'll maybe spend a few days practicing in my basement before trying to do anything crazy under the car. If I can't weld a nut in my basement, then I will NOT attempt it whilst lying under my car.

The ever-eloquent ChrisBennet once said to me, "Sometimes the most valuable tool in my toolbox is patience."

Now would be a good time to pull it out and use it...

Thanks,

I agree with Jim here. This is not the time to learn welding. You screw this one up and you are into big time expense.

I just bought a welder and will 2nd the suggestion to take your car to a shop and have it fixed. The cheap welders are just that. I think you have to spend at least $400 to get one with some usefull options and available parts. Of course, I would love to have a $2k Miller, but mine will do for now. Add to that the cost of argon and the bottle, some wire, mask, gloves.... Then you have to weld it. It might be easy to weld, but it's not easy to weld clean smooth beads. In the time spend practicing your technique you could be enjoying your car.

Good luck in whatever you decide!

Janus,

Why not drill out through the center of the plug (about 3/4 the dia of the original) making sure not to damage the tranny threads and with a small chisel, knock the rest of the plug out.

start with a small pilot hole and enlarge to the proper diameter. I am not sure if the tranny is in the car but if it is, then the metal shavings from the drill will fall to the ground. Once the plug is drilled you could take a small hack saw blade and saw a groove in the side of the plug which will make it easieer to knock out.

Steve

For the cost of trailering and all the hassle you might try a mobil welding service to come out to you and fix you up.:D Just a thoughtSmileWavy

I'm sorry, I guess I mis-interpreted the question.

As far as welding goes, sticking a nut to a drain plug with a MIG is about as easy as it gets. You don't need a smooth bead, or good control, just get it to attach and if the weld fails grind it off and try again.

As to whether you SHOULD attempt this, that is your call and depends on how badly you want to learn to weld, how often you will use the welder in the future, and how badly you do not want to take the car to someone else.

Also, keep in mind that you will be welding on something which has a few quarts of flammable liquid inside it. Personall, I would suggest that you locate your local Snap on or MADC man and invest in a set of high quality E-Z out style bolt extractors. They are something you will rarely need, but worth thier weight in gold when you do need them. On your way home, stop at the local Home Depot and buy a set of self centering "bullet tip" drills. They have a tiny center drill right on the end of the drill bit which makes it much easier to drill a perfectly centered hole. Then thread the screw extractor in and hopefully you will get you plug out. Just be careful not to be a gorrilla and break the screw extractor off. Dave C

I say drill it out. As far as welding goes, it is not as easy as everyone makes it seem. Mig welding is like everything else, you learn the basics, then you start to learn how to do it.

Is the plug your welding on steel, or alunimum alloy? How easy will it be to try and strike an arc and hope you hit the target let alone run a bead of weld or even a tack weld lying on your back underneath the car?

If you want to weld a bolt on, call a local welding shop/sheet metal shop/mechanical contractor/ pipe welding shop/automotive welding shop and see if they have someone with a portable welder who can come by and do it for you. It may cost you a couple hours of the persons time (maybe $60 or $80) but a lot cheaper then buying a welding machine.

Steve

Underneath your Porsche is not the place to learn how to weld. You're asking for trouble if you get under there and start welding without know what you're doing. You've got flammable liquid all around you.

Flatbed the car to a muffler or machine shop and let a pro take care of the problem. If there's a shop close enough, you might even be able to use your AAA card (if you have one) for the towing.

Wow, so much excellent advice. You guys rock...as for the drain plug, I am amazed at how hard it is to remove. I screwed it in just two weeks ago and I made it a point to "finger tighten" it so it would not get stuck. Maybe I cross-threaded it? I have no idea.

In any event, I really have always wanted to learn to weld but have held back because I figured I might like it TOO MUCH and I already damaged enough things on my car and elsewhere with ill-advised and poorly concocted DIY mis-adventures. Perhaps this drain plug is just another reason why I should NOT learn to weld, right?

As for drilling...hmmm...I do own a few drills and have managed to damage a lot of expensive parts with them already...:D I also have some "easy outs" but have never needed them (so far)...the biggest one I have is 6.7mm...seems weak compared to the Drain Plug From Hell Fortified With UberTorque...

stormcrow: When you say drill...I am thinking you mean to drill out the middle to weaken the thing so it can be mauled with a chisel? I like that idea as well...

However it goes, I will not be defeated by this damned drain plug !!

Is it possible transmission is magnesium case?

From what little I remember of High School Chemistry, isn't magnesium highly flammable?

Can one of the experts chime in... Is it ok to weld around Mag case transmissions & engines? Or is it only dangerous in powder/ribbon form?

Don´t forget the most important thing if you start welding on your car, TAKE THE MINUS POLE AWAY otherwise you have a broken generator..

And if you buy one of the cheep welding machine it´s probably not prepared for the Argon, it´s some kind of wire who doesn´t need Argon on the cheeper one, that kind of welding machine should you not buy it´s more like a toy I think.

/Jocke

ackk...don't drill it out!!!

although chances are minimal but the chance of getting metal shavings in a 911 tranny would keep me from doing it...

the weld the nut on technique is good...hit up a midas 1 hour before closing...throw the guy 20 bucks and bring equip to do a tranny oil change...

if you want to give another go...get a oxy-acetelyne torch at your local home depot...(it is the 2 tanks...one is oxygen) heat up the nut...then have a squirt bottle and cool her down...repeat...4-5 cycles...should break the nut loose...

DISREGARD if your case is magnesium...

I think welding would be difficult - first because it's upside down welding, second because the oil in the tranny is going to be a great heat sink.

I vote for the drill out method.

You're sure you're turning it the right way? (that's the mistake I always make! ):eek:

Have you tried with only heat??

Heating up the material makes it increase and then it should go much easier.

Another thing to do is to cool the drain plugg down(with a freezing-spray) and the material draws together..Same, same but different you now.

Good Luck anyway you choose!

"I would not go for the drilling anyway!

/J

I'm changing my vote to the heat/cold method.

Good luck!

My vote is to call in an on-location welder. You pay your $$ to have it professionally welded, you apply that money toward watching a pro do it, plus you get to ask him innane but valuable welding questions on your nickel ... don't be surprised if he charges you more for harassing him with questions :-), and if he gets the old plug out, you won't be stuck at the muffler shop with a removed drain plug and a cross-threaded drain hole to deal with because you'll be ...... at home.

Don't try an ez-out unless it's as big as the drain plug. It'll break. You don't want to weld a nut onto a drain plug AND a broken ez-out.

Regards,
Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

It is suspicious that you barely tightened it before and now it is well and truely stuck...

Either way, I have taken from quickly reading all your posts on this and the gearbox rebuild that you need to drop the tranny again to open it up and check something (what? I don't remember).

If so, why not take the whole transmission to a shop and have them remove the plug using their favourite method...

RE: drilling the bolt out and having shards in the tranny. Well, keep in mind that there are several quarts of oil directly above that plug. As soon as you puncture the plug you will strike oil. I dont care how good you are (or bad depending on the perspective) but if you manage to get shavings inside the tranny you have managed to work a miracle since all that oil will be flushing it out. Besides, even if you could manage to get something up in there a magnetic drain plug would immediatly recover any small shards that might end up in the bottom of the case. Heat is a great method for getting a stuck bolt out, but I think it would be a bad idea to be applying much heat to the gearbox. (especially if its magnesium!!!! Danger Will Robinson) If you drill out the plug and use the largest E-Z out available its very unlikly that you would manage to break it (this is also why you use top quality tools). And remember, rigthty tighty, lefty loosie ;)

Given that the drain plug is upside down and you only screwed it in finger tight is there any chance you are turning it the wrong way in your attempts to loosen it? Looking up at the plug turn it counter clockwise to loosen if there is any hex recess left to connect to. If not, procure the services of a competent welder. Cheers, Jim

Man, this one drain plug is providing me with a huge education...well, fear not, the transmission is aluminum. True, I have a mag tranny as well....but it was used as an "organ donor" for the ring and pinion on the aluminum tranny...all of the magnesium parts are safely stored away in the basement...and yes, CamB, it is VERY suspicious...I can only assume I must have gotten the "righty tighty" thing backwards at some point in the operation...certainly would not be the first time for me...and as for fixing the other tranny problems, they are fixed...Woo Hoo !!...I dropped the engine/tranny on Satuday, drilled a hole in the stuck drain plug to drain the thing and managed to pull of the front cover, fix the problem (i.e. mis-adjusted fifth/reverse slider), install a new gasket, and re-assemble without incident. Isn't it amazing that I can do surgery on the transmission while upside down under the car but I get tripped up by the DRAIN PLUG? AAAGGGHHH....

Anyway, I am still trying to use various chisels to coax it off before doing anything drastic. I have no other plans for tonight so no valuable time is being wasted. However, I do have a very nice new tan....on my left leg !! :D

And yeah, after my initial excitment about using my power drill again, I got scared about metal shavings in my tranny...hmmm...and I have no idea what the hot/cold method is....like you point the torch at the drain plug and then cool it with some sort of spray?...sounds totally cool...I want to try it even if it doesn't work....

Hmmm...okay, off to check the yellow pages for that travelling welder....

Would the strongest type of adhesive you could find not do the job instead of welding?

"Would the strongest type of adhesive you could find not do the job instead of welding?"

Yeah, I'm definitely game. I tried glueing the 17mm socket into it using JBWeld. But that stuff was totally weak and it snapped right off. I found a number of portable welder dudes in the yellow pages so if all else fails I'm sure I can get the problem resolved.

I just tried using a chisel to make little slices on opposite sides of the plug. Now I am off to Sears to buy a big-a$$ed screwdriver. If I can fit it into the slices, then I am hoping I can twist it off like a giant screw. I shall also investigate their largest EZ-Outs...

Failure is Impossible !!

When all the fun and games is over (I am fully impressed with your perseverance), you really owe it to yourself to check the threads in the case carefully. It would suck to have to have the same (or worse!) problem in a couple of years time...

Now, I don't know much about what you guys are talking about specifically, but I had a similar problem - nothing to do with a transmission, but a low-profile screw with a stripped head.
I took my Dremel (fantastic tool) and cut a slot all the way across the bolt, as deep as possible, and wide enough to get a sufficiently strong bit of metal in. The screw was very small, so a Leatherman blade was fine, but it sounds like in this case a small prybar tip would be perfect. Make sure the slot is nice and deep so that you can get the bar in properly, because you *really* don't want to strip the slot.
Oh... and good luck...

This should be a poll! I vote for the ez-out. Sears has what you need. They really work. I would use the square type - I think you can apply more torque. Drill the correct size hole, pound in the tool and turn with a wrench. Good luck.

Janus,

I sincerely hope you haven't been attempting to tighten that plug with all of your chisel, etc. work! Only YOU know whether you can be easily confused about the loosen/tighten directions when hot, tired, and laying under a car trying to defeat frustration, and perhaps disoriented a bit???

Isn't this stuck plug one of the aluminum variety? If so, then I strongly suggest that a professional welder be contacted ... before you mess up that 915 case <b>BIG TIME!!!</b>

You may want to bounce this idea off the pro with aluminum TIG/MIG welding experience ...

Get a piece of scrap aluminum, either 1/4" plate or 2" x 2" heavy angle ... and figure out some way of attaching wrench or lever to it after attached to the plug. What I suggest is six 1/4" countersunk holes be drilled into the plate or angle ... such that the holes 'straddle' the thickest part of the plug wall remaining, and that the welding should fill in the holes. <b>The welder must be sure that none of the weld intended for the plug ... can fuse with the case!</b> Good luck!

the heat cool method is very popular with the heat exchanger removal due to the rusted on bolts...

you heat it as hot as possible...the small HE nut glow red...may be hard to do with a tranny plug...and then your douse it with H2O...this makes the nut expand and contract quickly...cycle it to break all the corrosion between the mating surface of the nut and the stud...

another thing I have found invaluble in working on my car is the concept of torque...if you are using a wrench slip a metal pipe over the handle to make the turning arm longer...MUCH less effort is involves...nuts I could not get off with a normal rachet...when I used a longer breaker bar came off without much effort...

let us know how it turns out...and yes I guess if you have oil in it metal shavings may not be a problem...but why drill get oil all over your power tool...all over you hand...I say try the torque method...heat cold...weld the nut on in that order...

good luck

MJ

If you've never welded before, I seriously advise you not to start here. Upside down welding can be difficult and requires more skill than normal. You're best bet is to safely get the car off the ground and get a portable welder to do the job for you. Most city's have businesses that do this and the fee is generally not very high. An experienced welder should be able to do this in under 10 minutes but you'll get charged at least a hours time (setup, drive time etc.) While I do this sort of thing all the time, I am also an experienced welder, in fact didn't I first suggest this idea to you? Anyway, welding is not that difficult to learn, especially MiG and besides being fun it's also a very handy skill to have. If you're the sort who likes to "play" with tools etc. get a decent MiG setup like Lincoln or Miller in the $600-1200 range, some scrap metal and practice away. My first major welding job was a rollcage for my drag-car, I practiced for a few weeks on scrap metal and learned to lay down very good beads with excellent penetration before even starting on the cage. My finished project passed NHRA inspection and I've never looked back. I currently do all the welding at work even though I'm supposed to be working in the lab LOL (sort of a deal I have with the boss, you know change of pace one in a while) Get a pro to take care of this problem then learn this fun skill.

Welding is fun and easy to learn . . . but you don't "learn" on your first real job! You should practice a lot on scrap metal first. And I agree with the other, for all the reasons stated, that you welding in this particular instance is not a good idea.

Oh, and you can't buy any decent welder for $200. $200 will get you a Home Depot "gasless" "welder," which is little more than a toy. At a minimium, you need a decent MIG welder - the lowest cost complete setup would be around $450.

do you have an air compressor? Cut a slot and try an air chisel and work it around. You may also try to heat it then immedietly melt wax on the hot plug, letting it seep into the threads. It works gtrat.

so its in finger tight? mmmmm.

imho the pro job is best here, weld a nut on and screw it off.

if you're gonna do it yourself, impact driver if the slot is good enough, if not last resort drill it out until you can break it (always the danger of metal shavings, which i think you should try to avoid).

btw-welding ain't easy. but its a whole lot easier with expensive pro kit.

snap on sells easyouts like this that go up to over 1". drill a hole, tap it in tightly, and presto. i would drill the hole large enough to remove the entire recessed center of the plug so the easy out can get a grip on the sides.

PLEASE USE A LARGE EASYOUT AND STOP THE MADNESS!!!

It will work. It must be LARGE so that you are drilling nearly the whole diameter of the plug. The plug is stuck on the gasket surface not the threads so once you drill the head off the darn thing the easyout will TCB (take care of business).
Don't sweat the shavings! The oil will carry them away and if you think about how drills work you can see that 90% of the shavings will be pulled out towards you. If you are still worried. Place a few ring magnets over the bit as you drill!!!!!!!!

Rock On. Alex

Indeed!
All of these welding suggestion; I can't help but think of the saying;
"when a hammer is your only tool . . . every problem becomes a nail"
Go get the right tool.

SUCCESS !!!!!!

Believe it or not, the "Giant Screw" method worked. I used a chisel to cut two slices - one on either side of the plug. Then I bought a WIDE chisel at Sears and rammed it in there like a big screwdriver. It was hard as hell to turn the chisel, but it held its grip and eventually the Drain Plug From Hell submitted to my will and turned out. Muhahahaha....

Unfortunately, it was the simplest method that finally worked...just a wide chisel and a long-handled crescent wrench (for torque)...no power tools or welding or plastic explosives or torches or freezing sprays or tachyon beams were required...but there is always next time...

Anyway, after it came out, I took a couple of magnetized tools and put them inside the plug hole to try to remove any shavings that remained. A few came out but not many. Then I checked the threads (they seemed okay) and screwed in the new drain plug. Filled her up with fresh new Swepco and now I am letting it all sit overnight to check for leaks.

Weeeee !!

So how did it happen in the first place? My bet is that I got my "Lefty Loosy" mixed up with my "Right Tighty" when I was upside down under the car. Certainly would not be the first time I made that mistake. I think I must be "torquelexic"...

Man, I gotta thank you guys for all of the suggestions. I learned a lot from this one thread. Hot/Cold, impact chisels, welding, EZ Outs, etc, etc...heck, now I want to try them ALL....:D ...I actually bought an air compressor and an air chisel, a complete EZ-Out collection, and asked the guys at Sears to help me choose a beginner welding rig just because I started to get interested in the various plug removal schemes...so more tool carnage is on the horizon !!

Ah yes, nothing pleases a sexually insecure man like power tool purchases...:p

Thanks again, you guys rock most righteously...

So Janus. Does this mean you're not going to weld or EZ out anything? We were waiting in anticipation. What a letdown, but glad you got the plug out.

BTW, how's your oil tank drain plug?

Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars