SC vs C4

[Brian Cameron]

My 79 SC is loads of fun at the track but not very competitive - a very long front straight and a fairly long back straight definitely favor the high HP cars. The car is bone stock (except for racing seat, R cmpd tires and 5pt belts) so I've been thinking about upgrades. Visions of SSI's, carb retrofits, and even SoK superchargers dance in my head. And of course, suspension mods - new shocks, sway bars, tbars, strut braces, neatrix bushings... and wouldn't it be nice to improve on that nasty 915 tranny...

Then I start to tally the $$ for these upgrades. Hey, just keeping the beast running has cost me nearly half what I paid for the car in the first two years I've owned it! My wife has been very patient but I think she was a tad miffed when I spent a week of this summer's vacation repairing odds & ends on the big arsed girl. Maybe I need a newer car that just doesn't need as much fixin', and comes with more HP and maybe some handling improvements in the bargain.

So of course I thought of the 87-89 Carerra's, and was doing some shopping & tire kicking. Then I saw the latest Excellence where someone was asking Bruce Anderson what he thought of the 964 vs the late 80's Carerras, and mentioned that they are often pretty close in price. I researched some more - and what do you know, it's true. So I'm considering an early C2 or more likely a C4, provided the various upgrades have been done to fix head leaks etc.

Now I have a dilemma - will I be sacrificing the whole (relatively) early 911 experience (someone in a recent thread termed it "visceral") as my ass end slides out on every satisfying corner - for a bloatosaurus cadillac ride with no excitement? Or will I thrill to the 250 horses thrusting me into the sports seat until I mash the ABS brakes as I slide into turn 1 at 100mph (no fiddling with trail braking here)?

Decisions, decisions.... so of course I thought I should consult the fine, highly opinionated minds on this board before committing myself one way or the other.

Your thoughts?

[thrown_hammer]

I think the 964 is a very attractive option from a price standpoint. I have seen 1991 C4 CABS for less than 1987 CABS! I am buying one as soon as my wifes car is paid off. I have a 2.7 car and the mass opinion is they are unreliable crap. I drive mine everyday weather permiting and gone on some long trips. I can't complain, she always starts.
I am glad the 964's are getting a bad rap. It's bad for the 964 owners from a resale standpoint, but great for people like us!

[dean]

If i were you I would see if I could swap cars with a 964 fellow at the next track event. I'll bet it is just as much fun as your car.

[Don Wohlfarth]

Brian, you are having the what if's.
I am not trying to beat on you, just dealing with your situation.
From your post you have owned the SC for 2 years and have spent another 1/2 of the purchase price to make it right. Sounds like the purchase price wasn't that good a deal after all. It doesn't matter, that's where you are. A decent SC is almost bullet proof and may (?) be one of the cheapest 911's to repair.
Each succeeding generation of 911's is an improvement over the previous model. When you start comparing your stock SC to later stock 911's on the track the SC will come out on the short end. It will not be competitive with later cars without dumping huge amounts on money into it, suspension, brakes, maybe a 3.6 transplant. This could be considered reinventing the wheel.
By the time you are finished and you add every dollar from purchase price to finished car you could buy a pretty nice 964.
Only problem is there will always be someone a little faster and the what if's never stop.

[VincentVega]

I've been thinking of the upgrades myself. I love the idea of a 3.6 in my SC, but think the C2 makes more $$ sense for me. I saw go for it! Find a nice C2 and you have a newer car, more power, better brakes and so on.

Like Don said though, there is always something faster. Maybe you can drive the C2 for 2-3 yrs and then buy a 993? The hardest part for me is to stick to a budget. If the Porsche budget is 5k this year, that's it. When I do buy another car I will have to sell the SC first or I might never get rid of it!

[jpachard]

Brian, If you are planning on tracking the car I would avoid the C4 and get a C2. By doing this you will still have some of the handling characteristics of the earlier car and less maint.

Cheers, James

[rattlsnak]

I have seen 3 C4's rip apart the "transfer case" section of the trans due to serious track use. @ $7,000 to repair

[304065]

My 79 SC is loads of fun at the track but not very competitive - a very long front straight and a fairly long back straight definitely favor the high HP cars. The car is bone stock (except for racing seat, R cmpd tires and 5pt belts) so I've been thinking about upgrades. Visions of SSI's, carb retrofits, and even SoK superchargers dance in my head. And of course, suspension mods - new shocks, sway bars, tbars, strut braces, neatrix bushings... and wouldn't it be nice to improve on that nasty 915 tranny...

Brian:

What do you mean, competitive? Are you racing? It doesn't sound like it if the car is bone stock. Before you go spending $30k on mods to bring your SC up to Club Racer spec, or another $30k to buy a late model C4, consider whether that bang is worth the buck. The rules of your sanctioning body are probably pretty specific about the mods you can make, e.g. if you want to race with the PCA, adding a supercharger will bump you into the appropriate GT-class, where every possible modification is made to win.

They are two very different cars: the C4 is a big heavy car with power steering, huge brakes (with ABS turned OFF) and massive torque from the 3.6. The SC is, in my opinion, the best blend between the lightness of the earlier long-hood cars and the power of the later ones, and either way you go from it, you will give up one thing and gain another. Four-wheel drive makes the C4 understeer at the limit and turn-in is not as sharp as the C2, and it will require a very different driving style-- rather than brake, turn-in, apex/accelerate and track out, it's more like brake, accelerate, turn-in and track out. The car has so much more traction that you can get on the throttle way earlier and slide the FRONT end out.

If I were in your position, I would get some HUGE torsion bars for the SC and bolt-on a set of Fikse's with 245 front and 275 rear rubber, and maximize your corner exit speeds, thereby compensating for your (comparative) lack of horsepower. Lower it down and add fiberglass front and rear bumpers, add SSI's and a low-restriction exhaust, richen the hell out of the CIS so fire shoots out of the pipe when you lift off and have at it.

[Planter91C2]

Originally posted by Brian Cameron



Now I have a dilemma - will I be sacrificing the whole (relatively) early 911 experience (someone in a recent thread termed it "visceral") as my ass end slides out on every satisfying corner - for a bloatosaurus cadillac ride with no excitement?
Your thoughts?

no cadilac ride in my 964. it is definitely fun to drive and visceral. i say go for it. you won't look back.

[Superman]

I'd agree that the SC is a good balance. I confess it is as much of a "luxury" car as I want to drive. I don't care as much for the 964 version, regardless of now much power they might have. If I were forced to get a second car, one that would be more competitive on the track than my SC, I would MUCH rather have an early shell, roll cage, race bucket, 3.6, suspension that is 'stiff as a goat's peepee' with things like the glove box lid missing. I wouldn't really have much use for a 964. But I can verify that they are quieter, smoother, etc. And more power I hear, but I don't think that's as important as most people apparently do. Sure, I like more power, but a good driver in my car can beat the pants off me in a 917.

[Jack Olsen]

Is the C2 faster? Yes. Does it drive significantly differently than an SC? In my opinion, no. Is it a bargain in the 911 scheme of things? Yes.

To me, that's pretty much the end of the discussion.

But don't get a C4. It's slower and heavier than the C2, and (again, in my opinion) the 4WD does not make it a better track car.

[island911]

Originally posted by JackOlsen
. . . the 4WD does not make it a better track car.

That maybe true if you live and drive in a desert. . .Brian here, is in "The Frozen Wasteland of the North."

[JonT]

An early car (pre 964) with a 3.6 transplant is arguably one of the most fun cars to drive on the road. Just ask Jack Olsen, Bill Verburg, Widebody.... the list goes on. I have to get weekly Botox injections to keep my smile off my face since my 3.6L implant. Highly recommended if you are planning on keeping your car for awhile.

[Jack Olsen]

An early car (pre 964) with a 3.6 transplant is arguably one of the most fun cars to drive on the road.

Well, yes, then there's that...

[CamB]

"and have at it."

I'm getting excited just reading that. Just 1.5 days to the weekend here in New Zealand...