Water/air intercooler in 930, need input...

[juan ruiz]

Well lets see,you remove the spare tire and install all the hardware in,install the radiator under the car belly connected in series with the A/C,then you run your line to the side under the car next to the side skirts and up to the intercooler,
This is how some of the RICE BOYS DO IT!

[Mike the mechanic]

I have thought about doing this a while back, since I didn't want a wing on my car, but the truth is, a well designed air/air unit is more effective than the air/water, because when the water gets heat soaked, you're screwed. Also, an air/air is as relaible as a brick, which to me, is the most important thing on the race track.

...Although, if you still want to use an air/water unit, you can do what I was going to. My car is a Carrera with the front mounted a/c condenser. That condenser can be used for the water heat exchanger. It also has a fan, and you can use most of the a/c lines for the plumbing (of course you would have to bypass the dryer, evaporater, etc) since they lead back the the motor. The long plumbing is a plus in this type of system becuase the more water you use, they cooler it will stay. Then a simple Spearco unit can be mounted in the engine bay with a circulating pump.

Mike
86 Carrera (soon tt)

[A Quiet Boom]

I'm with Jack on this, put the radiator/cooler up front preferably in the valance, mount the tank in the smugglers box and use either copper or aluminum lines to circulate the coolant from front to back under the car where they will add addition cooling. This moves the weight forward and keeps most of the coolant far removed from engine heat. It also removes the possibility of the radiator heating the intake or engine cooling air.

[juan ruiz]

Or here some more inf
I have a friend that runs (auto cross & rally) a HIGHLY modified, AWD turbo Eclipse. He has just installed a water injection system to supplement his upgraded intercooler. With the addition of the modestly priced $250 water injection system, he is running 4 more pounds of boost – 20 pounds! – with no detonation.
Briefly, I have a 1978 California 930 running B & B header/exhaust and large turbo. When I purchased the new turbo, I was told that it was a K27-7006. My new mechanic later told me that the unit appeared to a K29. Be that as it may, the compressor side is significantly larger than the K27-11 another friend installed in his ’79 930. After a brief experiment with adjustable boost, I have installed a 1.0 bar spring that, according to my Ruf boost gauge, is actually providing a modest 0.9 bar of boost. I had to replace the stock CD unit—opting for an integrated coil unit from Perma-Tune. The spark must be stronger than the stock unit as I had to retard about 2-3 degrees from stock timing when the Perma-Tune was installed. My intercooler is stock.

I have never heard of anyone installing a water injection system in a Porsche turbo but, given that we all operate under the same laws of physics and the apparent significant price/performance benefit water injection, thought I would put it out there. Per my brief Internet research, water injection has been successfully used in a number turbo applications such as: F1 in the ‘80s; rally cars since ’95; and, OE in Saab 9-5s.

My questions:

1) Has anyone installed a water injection system in a 930? What brand? Aquamist out of the UK was particularly informative and appears to offer a quality system. Aquamist also convincingly argues that, despite some public bias against, water injection is a very effective cooling medium to supplement a stock intercooler. Water detonation suppression allows you to safely run higher boost and, at the same time, will clean any carbon buildup in the motor.
2) Apparently, people commonly use the windshield water bottle as the source for the injection system. Though convenient, do I need to be concerned with lateral g forces? I would hate to have the water pump sucking air while driving through turns. What other tanks are out there?
3) As high-energy ignition systems are recommended with water injection, am I covered on this front with the Perma-Tune?
4) What boost should I be able to SAFELY run with a properly installed water injection system given the configuration of my 930? As high as 1.1 or 1.2 bar? My friend with the Eclipse increased his boost from 16 to 20 pounds of boost. Incidentally, his water injection is set to kick-in whenever his turbo spools above 10 psi.
5) Whatever the max SAFE boost may be, I assume my stock “european” fuel system will be sufficient given my motor config. I have read the stock fuel system will handle up to 450 hp.
6) What about timing? I believe my California car comes stock with additional timing retardation that was not installed on the other US cars.
7) Where is the best place to locate the water injector? My guess would be right above the throttle body at a 90-degree angle with the airflow. Per the Aquamist folks, they maximize the mist effect by injecting water with a 7 bar water pump.
8) What size injector should I use?
9) Any other thoughts/suggestions/warnings?

Any input will be greatly appreciated

Thank you for contacting me.

I will go straight to your questions:

1) I don't know for sure that a 930 has used our water injection as we veryrarely sell direct to customers and so far we have not heard anyone contact



us - people tend to call us if there is a problem otherwise we don't
hear
from them. We have however supplied to a few Porsches as well as a few
GT
racers in secret as they are not meant to be using them. The cooling a
detonation control is a fact -make sure that you only buy systems that
provides high water pressure as uneven distribution to the cylinders
will
make the entire installation in-effective.

2) Most serious Aquamist users design their own tank, some fancy design
has
multiple compartments as well as a small anti-surge tank below the main
tank. over half of people we know installed the outlet pipe on the
front of
the tank - a mistake they have realised later when they experienced
water
surge problems - don't make the same mistake.

3) You only need to use high energy coil if you run more than 25% of
water
to fuel - normal ratio is between 8-15%.

4) and 5) The Boost is limited to fuel quality, compression ratio. fore
10%
water, you can run approximately 4 psi or one compression ratio over
stock -
make certain that you have enough fuel. More water is needed if you
want to
run air.fuel ratio between 12:1 to 12.5:1 - best ratio for power.

6) You should advance the timing from stock approximately 3 degrees
from
stock - water slow down the flame speed by 2-3 degrees. You may be able
to
run even more advance due to the lowered combustion temperature. The
best
way to determine ignition timing for a given fuel grade is to monitor
the
knock and EGT -below 900C for cast pistons and below 950-975C for
forged
pistons.

7) Best position is immediately after the intercooler.

8) Size on jet is determined by working out your maximum fuel flow and
divided by ten.

9) You must treat the addition of a water injection system seriously to
get
the best out of it, planning with care and attention must be exercised.
We
are launching some new water flow sensing products on the coming UK
autosports show in January, preview on our site. www.aquamist.co.uk

[bell]

plumbing wouldn't be too severe, you could put the small "radiator/cooler" in the drivers side rear fender with a small fan, you can use quality high pressure flexible hose with good fittings.
where would the ideal placement of the "radiator" be? befor the intercooler or after? i would think after.
sounds like a fun project
here is a link for a toyota mr2 (mid engine) with this type of setup, also install dirrections to give you some more ideas.
i found this while browsing...i do not know th owner of the mr2
http://www.trueleo.com/a2wickit.htm

[tobluforu]

Damn Juan, go, go ,go. I'm with juan why, because i run the aqua mist system on my Saab and have been for a yr. I have many mods also. But with the stock IC i'm able to SUSTAIN 22lbs of boost when I want it. I started with the fan. Was able to hit 20 with boost bounce from 15-20 depending on heat. Added a sprayer to the ic. Was able to hit 21, with boost bounce from 17 on up. Added the Aquamist system. A lot of people are running this system that have turbo's. I'm now able to hit 23 rock solid-no detonation what so ever. I also have a MSD BTM with a dawes device that enables me to advance timing to 20-stock is 15-16. Torque is amazing. My saab is a runner. Hauls ass on the freeway. Will walk away from a lot of cars to a certain extent. It just plane sucks off the line. Rob at scargo was running it on a porsche last yr that was reaching 700hp. My point is that it works on saabs-lots of performance saabers have them. Some one should give it a try on a porsche if boost bounce is a problem. You have to have a pump that will enable you atomize the water. The washer pump will not work. Oh yeah, my saab has 155,000 miles on it.
Cheers

[dean]

I thought of doing an air/water also. I priced the Spearco units and a carefully designed and built sys. was far more money and also more compicated than an air/air sys. My plan for the air to water was like A Quiet Boom's the tank in the smugglers and a cooler up front.

[CamB]

You all ought to all be ashamed of yourselves. Water in a 911 . I don't even have a washer bottle (thanks PO).

Seriously, this is really interesting. I am going to be excited to see if anyone follows through on either of the systems proposed.

[beepbeep]

As i see it, spraying water on intercooler is band aid and not a long term solution. I would like to have space-efficient and reliable system that doesn't need refilling every time i'm driving on the highway.

Water/air IC is tried and true solution that is more efficient (albeit more complicated) than air/air IC. I don't think that few kilos of coolant/radiator that are 10cm higher up than your ordinary megabuck Kokeln giant air/air IC is going to noticeably upset handling characteristics.

Also, water injection, water spray, and air/water IC are three different things.

1. Water injection is spraying water mist into mixture in order to lower temperatures.

2. Spraying water onto IC is also a way of doing same thing, w/o introducing water into intake.

Both methods are using water/alcohol that needs to be refilled from time to time.

I've read tests of different setups with and without IC water spray and results are dissapointing.

Water-injection is used and works but it's still band-aid.

Also, i don't think that there is need for a giant catch-tank or extensive plumbing...there is lot's of cool air being drawn trough engine lid, it won't heat up engine-cooling air considerably and it will simplify design. Few liters of coolant, good air/water heat exchanger, 12V qater pump and bigger oil cooler acting as a radiator is all i have in mind right now.

P.S.
tobluforu: Saab has APC, Porsche doesn't. If it starts pinging, there is no mechanism that will lower the boost. That's why i have 7:1 CR.

[garrickl]

Well guys .... here is a water to air intercooler setup that I acquired but have yet to install. It is still with the engine. Comes with the entire 3.2 EFI setup. Done by an understudy of Bob Norwood http://www.bobnorwood.com/ in Texas. Fabricated to ride on top of the 3.2 intake manifold with plenty of room in the engine bay. Has a separate water radiator, water tank and water pump. Was originally in a 930S flatnose. With Haltech 9A Engine management ECU, 964 cams, twin plug it dynoed at 620 RWHP.

The complete motor with everything attached is up for sale and if it does not sell as a package we will probably sell off the Haltech intake\injection & intercooler as a package separately apart from the remaining engine

[911nut]

The 934 had a water to air intercooler. The water radiators were in the front valence.
PB