What's up with the 2,7L engine, really ?

[Driver_X]

About a year ago, I needed to rebuild by 180,000 mile 2.7. Leaking, possible broken head studs etc..ran well, but leaked about a quart every 500 miles. Once I ran the #'s to rebuild my 2.7, taking into account machining work that was specific for the magnesium cases etc...it made more financial sense, both in the initial cash outlay and resale value later on down the road, to go with a rebuilt 3.0. So that's what I did. And when I sold that car 6 months later, I got every penny back out of it that I put in.

If you have a good running 2.7, keep it, make sure you have a fender mounted oil cooler (can't stress this part enough, I didn't and my engine temps were much lower with the 3.0 & the oil cooler than the 2.7 without, about 20 degrees lower) and keep driving. But should you need a rebuild, do your research, run the numbers, and make your own decision.

[prebordao]

Can't resist adding my own 0.02

On top of everything that's been said, there's also a financial side - With an early 2.7 (74-75) you get just about the driving experience of a pre-73 (true - despite what many others may say) for a fraction of the price. And their value can only go up (and significantly, I think), as pre-73's get pricier and people realise that they're quite similar beasts, after all.

[dicklague]

I have a 2.7 in my 1973. It is complete with MFI induction.

When I bought the car in 1999 it had a fresh engine built by Mark Kinninger at Black Forest in San Diego. Dave B at TRE where I bought it told me that the engine had 1500 miles on it. I have now driven it 120,000 miles in the last 14 years and have had zero problems with the engine. It gets regular oil changes every 3 to 4K and valve adjustments and that is it. I have one return tube with a small seep.

It was built from 7R cases from 1975 and has all the right upgrades.....it is a solid engine and I am very happy to have and MFI 2.7 in my car. It is just a great runner that makes all the right noises with it Bursch exhaust.

The only thing I have upgraded is tuning the MFI with the help of and AFR gauge, and a Pertronix upgrade.

I have been running the 3 pin Bosch CDI, and I am now installing much newer tech in the form of a Daytona-Sensors CD1 ignition. I feel points and antiquated CDI are the areas that can be improved. Electronics have come a LONG way in 40 years and this is a daily driver so I want to get the best out of the engine and MFI with these mods.....I am keeping all the old parts and not butchering anything. I can always go back to stock.

I will probably rebuild the old CDI as a spare.

Here are some photos of the work so far. Here is the main box and the coil that matches. I am still working on mounting everything to my satisfaction.


Love the 2.7!!

[dfhtrhjn]

I have a '77 2.7L where I'm getting about 25-28 mpg with stock CIS. I also have a '74 2.7L race car with Zenith 40s that gets 15 mpg but hauls serious ass.

A 2.7L with the few repairs mentioned in the above posts is a really smooth sweet engine.

[june82000]

Originally Posted by fanaudical

I have a 7R mag-case 2.7 that I rebuilt with all the "fixes" (time-certs, OE steel head studs, line bore, planarized spigot mounts, oil bypass mod, bigger oil pump, added front cooler, followed Supertec's excellent case-sealing advice, hydraulic tensioners, turbo covers, lots of balancing, etc). It was not an inexpensive rebuild. I rebuilt this in the stock CIS configuration and the thing has plenty of power and pull. Not a single leak or oil drip. I'm very happy with the result. (Now if I could just get the rest of the car sorted appropriately...)

fanaudical,

Just curious if you did your own rebuild - and - would you mind defining 'inexpensive'. I'm just trying to get a general idea of what the cost could potentially run. Thanks

[june82000]

Due to all of the negative press regarding the 2.7L engine I was a little concerned. However, after reading all of your comments, I am actully starting to feel proud to be a 2.7L owner

[june82000]

I've searched and can't find the answer. Are the 2.7L (eg 1974) matched to a particular chassis? And how would I be able to tell? Thank you!

[jjs3rd914]

Having owned both a 73.5 and now a 74 911, as I have posted before, the 74 is as close one can get to a long hood driving experience (non S). The 73.5T was purchased new by me in 1973 and like and IDIOT I sold it 15 years later. A few years ago, started looking for a 73 again but the asking costs were beyond my budget.

Enter the 74 plain 911 with the infamous 2.7 at a great price (then!). With 180k plus miles I swear the 74 is a faster car than my recollection of the 73.5. The heads were redone (by PO) about 30K miles ago. I also am fairly certain the 2.7 does have 3 studs (top only) that are pulling, but the car is very very strong and a blast to drive. It appears that the case has never been split and leak-downs/compression tests are sat. I do plan in the next year or so to do a complete rebuild. I just hope the car has Nikasils.

So in my aging opinion, if one wants a long hood but does not want to pay the price, look at the mid years, especially the 74. As other have pointed out, and I now agree, the 2.7 may have gotten a bum wrap over the years, but in fact is a worthy engine to be in the back of our 911's for that time period. I think in time (and it has already started) the mid years will be sought after (values increasing) if one is looking for a narrow bodied 911.

jjs3rd914

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by june82000

Due to all of the negative press regarding the 2.7L engine I was a little concerned. However, after reading all of your comments, I am actully starting to feel proud to be a 2.7L owner

if you have a '74 don't worry

if a later year, find out if it ever had thermal reactors on it

[fanaudical]

Originally Posted by june82000

fanaudical,

Just curious if you did your own rebuild - and - would you mind defining 'inexpensive'. I'm just trying to get a general idea of what the cost could potentially run. Thanks

Well, to give you some idea of what I started with:

My Porsche project...

I did do the rebuild assembly myself. I had others do the majority of the machining. (Some very minor stuff I did myself at work, but the majority went to professionals.) I spent roughly two years patiently searching and sourcing parts while concurrently managing part machining and assembly.

I still haven't finished a complete accounting of the engine build (not sure I want to...), but here's a breakdown of some of the major expenses:

New P&C's (Mahle, in the box, sourced new-old-stock): ~$1800
7R case mods,line bore, crank clean-up, cam clean-up: ~$1500
Cylinder head machining & new valves: ~$1300
Tensioners: ~$850
Chains, sprockets, ramps, gasket kit: ~$750
Head studs: ~$400
Oil pump (sourced a used, very good condition pump): $350
Main bearings (the last set of std/ovr to be found anywhere): $350


OK - I need to stop now.

I kept some costs low just by being patient and searching diligently for deals. (Forget about finding new, in box P&C's at that price ever again.) I'm not even beginning to add up all the multiple "little" $50 here / $75 there purchases that went into that motor as well as the "other stuff" I'm forgetting to mention (SSi's, ignition, rebuilding the CIS, rebuilding the alternator, fan, shroud, chain boxes, etc). I'll bet I've got at least ~$250 just in regular fasteners.

I certainly would have been money ahead to find a used 3.0L and drop it in the car. (I probably could have found a used 3.0L AND rebuilt it for what I have into my motor.) I do love a challenge, however.

One very cool, smooth-running, non-leaking 2.7L: PRICELESS.

[M.D. Holloway]

I have a '77 with the original 5 blade but it does have Carerra tensioners and a pop-off. To my knowledge the headstuds were not replaced but mine is an ROW so it dosen't have the thermal reactors. Fun car and a blast to drive...

[Nico911]

Would a 1977 Canadian model have the thermal reactor ?

[june82000]

Originally Posted by fanaudical

I still haven't finished a complete accounting of the engine build (not sure I want to...), but here's a breakdown of some of the major expenses:

New P&C's (Mahle, in the box, sourced new-old-stock): ~$1800
7R case mods,line bore, crank clean-up, cam clean-up: ~$1500
Cylinder head machining & new valves: ~$1300
Tensioners: ~$850
Chains, sprockets, ramps, gasket kit: ~$750
Head studs: ~$400
Oil pump (sourced a used, very good condition pump): $350
Main bearings (the last set of std/ovr to be found anywhere): $350


OK - I need to stop now.

Ouch! I guess this isn't the run of the mill Ford 302? You can buy 35 Ford oil pumps for that price.

I haven't even looked at mine since the day I bought everything. HOPING i don't have a big mess. I only heard it run for a few minutes so...

[Reifle]

The thermal re-actors were more in the south USA. I believe the Canadian cars did not have them...

[pranderson]

Ive got a 74 2.7 as well. Ive had it for about 12 years and I guess I cant complain, Its been a good motor. But, I think its getting tired. Its got 135K miles on it. It seems to run pretty well except for some recent CIS cold start issues Ive been avoiding investigating. In preparation for the inevitable, several years ago I talked to a mechanic about rebuilding it. He quoted me $20-23K to rebuild it switching it over to carbs and making the necessary machining updates to the case. That was much higher than I had anticipated so I talked to an outfit in AZ about going the 3.6L route and they gave me an over the phone estimate of $25K. Its going to be a difficult decision as the time will eventually come when I have to do something. In the mean time, it runs well and is a lot of fun to drive----A much different kind of driving experience than my 83 SC or 91 Turbo. Its much more of a mechanical, in touch with the road experience. I really enjoy my 2.7.

[fanaudical]

Originally Posted by june82000

Ouch! I guess this isn't the run of the mill Ford 302? You can buy 35 Ford oil pumps for that price. ...

There is a significant difference in both cost and skill required between rebuilding almost any American V8 versus a Porsche engine (especially a 2.7). (Not trying to be snooty about it; just the way it is.) For reference, Pelican here is listing a new Carerra oil pump at ~$960.

[Lapkritis]

More skill? Nah. More cost and more "gotcha" costs. That's it.

[Daves911L]

In many ways it is more difficult to build a Ford 302 than a 911, at least if you are really going to do it right. The parts are more expensive of course for the Porsche (though why they should be?). $20-$23K for a 2.7 rebuild is robbery by snobbery, probably an actual shop labor rate of $250-300/hr!.

[gregk1]

Originally Posted by Jack Stands

Isn't a 911RS powered by a 2.7? Once they've been redone with case savers, they are quite bulletproof and a very nice engine.

It used to be that the 3.0SC engines were much stronger and so more desirable for the aluminum crankcase, but now that most of them have been having issues with breaking Dilivar head studs, I don't think it makes as much of a difference.

The 2.7 that Supertec built for my 914-6 conversion car just pulled 199.56 hp at the rear wheels (RS pistons and cylinders, S cams, Weber carbs). Not too bad for a 40 year old design!

i have a 2.7 built by ottos of Venice beach same rs spec p&cs s cams webbers sounds about the same as yours it was in a 914 what trany are you running i have a 901.s and want to run it most 914.s have 901 have not ran this motor yet how street able is it with the s cams

[june82000]

Originally Posted by Daves911L

$20-$23K for a 2.7 rebuild is robbery by snobbery

That does seem quite exorbitant. I guess since Porsche vehicles are stereotypically owned by the 'well to do' they figure they can afford it. If you don't have much money then you had better be able to do most of the work on your own.