Why do English cars stink?

[Kurt B]

Isaac Newton, James Clerk Maxwell, Michael Faraday...
Great English minds.
But cars like Jaguars have a reputation something like "The new Jag, you won't find an easier car to tow."
Same is true of MGs Triumphs and so forth.
Notoriously unreliable and unreasonably complicated. What gives? Anyone have insight into this reputation, whether it's valid, and what the causes of it are?
I mean, it's not like England is Korea and just now is stepping into the industrial world era. Japan took to the world manufacturing ideas quickly since the 1950s and 1960s and their cars have become a paradigm for getting a good bang for your buck even after tariffs (with respect to what they aim to do...a new Honda sedan will certainly deliver on its promise to be an affordable, simple, yet reliable car).
Let's hear it.




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Kurt B
(smashed)1984 Carrera Cabriolet
911 Page
carrera_cabriolet@yahoo.com

[SeaDweller]

I'm not sure what the root cause is, but while in high school, I was always driving my dad's Jaguar XJ-S to school so I could take it to the shop afterwards. Everyone was envious, but nobody realized that I would sit around for 3 hours while the mechanic fixed the car.

This should be interesting, as there's certainly more than fable to their reliability, or lack thereof I should say.

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Michael
'78 911SC Euro

[Superman]

I learned to drive in a friend's dad's XKE Jag and I love those cars. Nevertheless, British motoring and German motoring are diametrically opposed approaches. With the former, it's form over function. With the latter, function comes first.

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'83 SC

[Jack Olsen]

Some of it has to do with the management of British Leyland and labor relations through some tough years. Sometimes the people putting the cars together weren't acting in the best interests of the cars. British companies also tended to sell their cars for less, and consequently didn't have the engineering resources that a company like Porsche had.

For what it's worth, my 86 Jaguar has been largely trouble-free. And contemporary Jaguars are very reliable. Ford's good for something, I guess.

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe
jackolsen@mediaone.net

[89911]

I'll lump their cars in with their dental health, those limeys.

Bring your british cars to Denmark and see them rust away in a couple of years.

[Obin Robinson]

here's some british car humour:

http://www.brit.ca/~tboicey/comics.html

i like this one:


and some more:

http://www.kitcar.com/articles-kitcar/humordept/lucas-prince.html


obin

[MelissaM]

This should make me flame bait for sure, but....there are a couple of similarities between British cars and Porsches.

For example, when you own a British car and have electrical gremlins, you'll hear, "Well, you know how those Lucas Electrics are..." When you own a Porsche, you hear, "Well, you know how those Bosch electric components are..."

Or, you hear how all British cars leak oil. Why don't the British make clocks? They couldn't figure out how to make them leak oil! OTOH, when I'd recently bought my 911 and it had an oil leak, people told me, "All 911's leak oil."

-- Melissa
'90 C2 Cab

[Jdub]

What a timely post: my neighbor up the hill just rolled her AHealy MkIV Sprite down to my driveway for a "quick" SU carb. lookover. HA HA.

But I am glad to have cut my teeth on several British cars in my past: a '69 MGB, a '74 TR6. As I looked over the tiny, little, cute 1275 four-pot in the bay of the Sprite, I was reminded how practical the English are to have so cleanly tranferred the agrarian engine to a sports car. The expectation was ALWAYS that you perform your own servicing, just as you do in the field or in the barn. So to with the English cars, by and large. I learned so much wrenching these cars and British motorcycles that I feel confident approaching the Pcar.

Jw

[RLJ]

Simple answer " Lucas, Prince of Darkness"

Randy Jones
1971 911

[Porsche911NYC]

English cars make wonderful lawn ornaments. Owned an '80 Triumph Spitfire when I was in the Marines. Learned to carry many extra electrical parts around in it. The English drink warm beer because they have Lucas electrical.

[Jack Olsen]

You're right, Melissa, but the difference is quantitative rather than qualitative:

In my garage, the Porsche leaks are quarter-size drops under the valve covers or oil return tubes (and that was with the old engine -- the 3.6 remains bone dry).

The Jaguar side is like a fossil fuel swamp. The car is in fine running order, but it's a freakin' sieve for oil, power-steering fluid, coolant and other goop. I keep plenty of the kitty litter stuff on hand.

It's amusing, though, about all the 'Lucas, prince of darkness' posts you'll see on this board -- and then also the warnings to carry fire extinguishers in 911s for the day when the (un-fused) front AC blower (or other component) starts an electrical fire in the dash of Stuttgart's well-engineered thoroughbred.

Older cars are older cars, when the dust settles. They need special attention to keep them alive.

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe
jackolsen@mediaone.net

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 06-06-2001).]

[Planter91C2]

are volvo's crap too? i was thinking of buying one for my wife.

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Daryl 964 Targa

[cegerer]

Don't know about Volvo's, but old Saabs? Well there's a topic for another thread!

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1971 911T - 2.5L Big Bore

[Mike Feinstein]

I owned and restored a 1971 TR-6 about 8 years ago. Like any car of that vintage, if you don't maintain it properly, it will let you down. Simple as that. . .doesn't matter if it's a Porsche, Triumph, Jag, or Ford. With appropriate upkeep, it was a very reliable car that never let me down.

Lucas electrics were part of their problem but most could be tracked down to a cracked or disconnected lead connector. I went through the car and replaced all of the rubber coated conntectors when I got the car and never had a hiccup. It was a fun car, was easy to work on, was reasonably quick, and was a real eye catcher. I sold it when I bought my first Porsche and still miss it. I love my current Porsche but that TR-6 holds a special place in my heart (and when it was finally at near-concourse condition, I had about $12K in it total)! Try that with a Porsche.

The Lucas jab I like best is: Why do the English drink warm beer? Because Lucas makes refridgerators too!

The older English cars have a charm and character that has never been matched. They started the sportscar craze in America (maybe the world) with small, fun two-seaters. Remember the TR2, MGTC, MGA, Austin Healys, Sunbeam (V-8), etc?

Mike 94 C2 cab

[Rot 911]

I presently own both German (72 911E) and British (58 Austin Healey Sprite and 72 MGB) and they all have their particular quirks which is probably why people like us own them. What all three have in common is that a person of average mechanical ability can actually do their own work on the cars. I also post on the british car boards and have noticed a major difference between those boards and this board: When you need some part on a Porsche the posting usually is "where can I buy it the cheapest." On the Brit boards the post usually will include an answer by someone that has figured out how to make the part themselves even though the part is cheap and available.

Kurt V

[Bill Douglas]

Hi Kurt.

My theories are:

The English have always had a problem with their class system. The white trash got to stick the cars together on the production line and disliked their (upper working class) managers and absolutely hated the company (upper middle class) owners. So every gasket left out or not and bolt not done up properly was winning one over from the enemy. Also they new they would never be able to by one of these new cars.

Some car companies merged and the intercompany rivalry didn't work too well in trying to build a reliable, well designed car.

Like they say in Europe, dress Itatian, eat French and drive German.

Good luck with the door!

See ya, Bill.

[CamB]

Well, I am a recent acquirer of a British Leyland era Jaguar XJ6, and feel, for once, semi-qualified to make some comments!

It is a pretty low milage (90k miles) 1978 model. The 6 cylinder, not the 12. Almost all of the electrics work (which I am surprised about!). What doesn't? The rear demister (but neither does the one on my 911), the map light, and one of the gauge lights (which is about 4 gauge lights less than don't work on my 911).

So no electrical problems (excepting the small underbonnet fire on the weekend after I overzealously washed the engine - source of fire - a Lucas fuse - hahahaha its all true).

Not much rust - probably less than my 911 had. BTW the 911 is a 1975, and both cars came from England to NZ some time in the mid 1980s.

Yes, the Jag leaks oil, but not that serious. And it performs just fine for a 2 tonne car. Even the handling is ok. Fuel economy sucks though. BIG TIME. 12-13 mpg...

Basically my take on the situation is that build quality is fine now that a bunch of niggles have been sorted by the POs. The car is well maintained and should offer me a number of years of service. Given that a transmission or engine rebuild costs less than HALF what a 911 one does, that is something to smile about.

Put simply, I really like it. It is my daily driver, has given me pretty much no trouble and should be considered the same as any other 20+ year old car. Porsches are just particularly well engineered, but I don't think you can criticise the Jaguar too much.

Some of the other awful British Leyland products however...Austin Princess anyone? Or as another example of typical English cars - my friends Lotus Elan - is just too fragile for daily driving. Lucas electronics, rebuild every 60k miles engine...but it is barely a step past kit car too.

And a lot of fun too. And MUCH cheaper than a 911.

Aw, British cars aren't that bad. Compare a 1968 Series 1 Jaguar XJ6 against a 1968 Cadillac or Mercedes for performance, handling and style and I personally think the Jag would win hands down every time. It really would have been a revolutionary car when it came out.

-end of pro Jaguar rant-

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Cameron Baudinet
1975 911S

[This message has been edited by CamB (edited 06-06-2001).]

[patalive]

Justy before I was married in 1969 (yeah, yeah) I sold my 59 356A and got a 1967 E-Type Jag. The 67 was the last year of the TriCarbs. I was living in Los Angeles at the time (East LA on Atlantic) - the E was a terrible car in the city - It ran so hot, you could feel the damn thing boiling.
-
But get that puppy out on the highway and it was pure bliss. And in my mind, no car sounds as pretty as a E-Type with those gorgeous mufflers.

[JerRed]

I'd prefer to eat German.

That said, I think I'll go grill a bratwurst and crack open a St. Pauli Girl.

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Cheers,
JerRed
1973 911T, 2.4 CIS