Will modification devalue car?
 

I have a 1976 911S Targa, 43,000 original miles. Practically perfect car. Doesn't overheat.

Would the installation of a carrera oil cooler devalue this original car which is in superb condition?

A Carrera oil cooler would not devalue your car because it's easily undo able.

Just make sure you clean and moth ball the Trombone cooler before storing it and try not to mark up the nuts.

Tough call on this.

On one hand, it's later model factory equipment that improves cooling and health of the engine. A good thing.

But it's not really a bolt on solution. Except if you can figure out a way to mount the front cooler using a bracket that would essentially bolt to the right side A-arm. But you also have to consider how you will mount/secure/support the hard lines going up the rocker. If you use a Rivnut, you are drilling holes in the body. If you go factory, you are welding little brackets, or bonding them on. I don't see any way around that but perhaps someone else has an idea.

Good to see you are thinking ahead on a very special car.

If it doesn't overheat, why bother?

No trombone cooler on car now.
Only change from original is 11 blade fan and removal of AC (which I have).

So it doesn't have a front cooler at all? That woul make it a much more in depth mod to add the oil lines etc.

What do you have for heat exchangers? 69-74 would help to keep temps down

I cannot comment on the effect upon value, but I would tell you that this late Carrera oil cooler add on will help preserve your engine. The trombone for the 2.7L engine was a good thought but not vary efficient.

I would recommend browsing Elephant Racing's site. They sell all types of cooling systems using OEM parts, with the exception of their much improved finned lines that traverse along the rocker panel. Chuck Moreland, their president, is great to work with and he'll talk you through.

I've recently installed one from ER, a single radiator in the passenger side wheel well on my '73 911T. But I have a '75 911S engine that used to run pretty hot before we installed the ER cooler. No temps above 195F regardless the run, usually 10F less.

Look, to install one of these things, you'll need to drill holes, either Rivnut (recommended) or tapping screws. There are two supplied brackets for the cooler, one into the headlight well and the lower one to the chassis. Simple. And ER provides brackets to secure the oil lines along their course. IMHO the upgrade to the late Carrera cooler just plain makes sense. Go for it, but call Chuck at ER for sage advice.

Tom

These aren't factory pieces on a 76 Tom. Personally, I wouldn't modify any very low mileage, pristine 911 from 65 to 89 with anything other than a bolt-on solution.

no, i dont think it would hurt it at all.

i was looking for an as original 930 as i could find. i ended up getting one with a k27 turbo, 18in wheels (look awesome), RUF IC and 2 external oil coolers. do i think it hurt the value of the car? no. for one, its things i would have done anyway. but as far as something like oil coolers, or changing the fan or backdating the exhaust, its porsche parts and i think they would be improvements.
in fact, anything to improve the cooling of the 2.7 in my opinion just increases the value. just dont cut holes in body panels.

It's a car not a Picasso. Cooling is important, I would actually value a car less if it didn't have some sort of oil cooling installed.

Great discussion. "It's a car, not a Picasso." What a great line.
Anyway, it would be wrong in my estimation to irreversibly alter this original car, even in some small way. I'm only a "purist" when the object is still pure. If this car were already modified, I'd add the cooler.

Thanks for your thoughts.

To me it would really matter what the weather is like during your drives. If its hot, around 90f and up wait to drive in the mornings or evenings. If its 85f or below I wouldn't worry about it. Agreed, NO DRILLING!

I agree with avoid new holes. But you have holes and brackets, ones that used to belong to AC parts. Make up something that runs the lines and places the heat exchanger where the AC stuff used to go.

The car is only original once.
You have already changes the cooling fan and removed the a/c.
If you plan on using the car it is a smart idea to install additional cooling.
Are you preserving it for someone else or is the car for you is the real question.
It already has more miles than a true collector would want for a museum piece.
My 2 cents...

Post some pics of your car. I don't think I've ever seen a practically perfect 76. Mine was slightly less than perfect when I got it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1409223690.jpg

I may be wrong, but I thought an 'S" of this vintage came with the oil cooler. No?

No i dont think there was anything special about an 'S" really for the 74-77. i didnt thank any of these cars had trombones,, i always thiught it was SC equipment put on for the larger 3.0 litre.

The S had different cams and slightly higher compression for an increase in horepower, I believe from 150 to 175. Optional oil cooler is listed in the PET, so you could try to find a used period correct one. I added a factory SC front oil cooler to mine, don't want to overheat the mag case on the hot summer days. I saw temperatures of 240' without one. Value of protecting the original engine was more important to me since I like to drive the car.

By the logic in this thread thermal reactors should be left in place. Heaven forbid hydraulic cam chain tensioners be installed!

If it is a retrofit of a later Porsche factory part, I would not think the value would be affected one bit. As long as the install is done in a neat and tidy manner.

Now if you were going to be mounting up a Pep Boys Made-In-China part, holding it in with zip-ties, we would be having an entirely different conversation.

Those are bolt on. Easily reversible if anyone cared to.

When you start drilling holes and welding onto a low mileage, pristine "practically perfect" tub, that changes everything.

I've parted out 10+ cars over the years, mostly 69 to 73, to get parts that I need for my projects and pay for the addiction. You wouldn't believe what PO's do to these cars. It's nice to see someone actually looking for some discussion before modifying his car.

You should look under the car to see what mounting brackets are already there. My 76, with no cooler, had mounting studs in place, all the holes predrilled and blocked with bolts for the optional trombone cooler. There was just no cooler. Perhaps because the trombone was an option worldwide, it was cheaper to make all the body panels the same regardless of sales point. The passenger side rocker is secured with screws and plastic spacers which allow the oil lines to insert without any additional holes or other modification, just using longer screws. The mounting bracket for the trombone was next to the two horns, just unused. I thought I would need to modify the body but it turned out that no modification was necessary to install the trombone cooler, oil lines and thermostat. Obviously the oil line setup at the engine and oil tank are replaced with those for an external cooler Have a look and report back. The drilled holes blocked with 8mm bolts in the front wheel well were covered with undercoating on my car.

The best thing you can do for value over all is to just leave it alone. Our cars are becoming more valuable every day. If I was looking now I would want an original car no matter how many miles were on it. It would be like finding a pre war Martin D28 guitar that was sanded in side for bass. I would pass. Like I said before, We are all going to sell our Porsche cars someday. Or someone else will.

Leave thermal reactors in place? I see your point. Originality is not always good for the car.
There are chain tensioner guards installed and the brake lines were just replaced (original lines had small nylon rings on them with the date 2/76), as were the pads. So, clearly not 100% original. But very close to it.

Value is in the eye of the beholder. Whether adding a Carrera oil cooler will decrease value or add value depends on the buyer at the time or it depends on the user at the time or something else at that time.

And, presumably every action is reversible. Heck, that's what restorations are all about. So, I'll think about it some more and talk in detail with the mechanic. The goal is to keep the car long term and use it.

Are you entering the car in Pebble Beach?
Anything easily reversible, that's does no damage or changes the car with holes, cuts or otherwise, will not affect value. Keep all the original parts. It shows concern for originality, and makes the car easy to revert back.
Purists be damned. Even Picasso made changes to his masterpieces.
Your car is no masterpiece. It's a car.

Someone saying a '76 with 43k mi would have no interest to collectors has not been paying close attention to the air cooled market the last 6-9 months. This car would be very interesting to a lot of collectors and the concern for respecting originality is well founded.

I think adding a cooler increases value, go for it and enjoy your car

Yes...and everybody clamoring over absolute total originality in the interest of protecting their "investment" is a little obseesed. The kind of people who know the price of everything but the value of nothing.

My ROI is the enjoyment of using my car and not locking it in a vault and fretting over it. Like someone else opined...unless you're planning on entering pebble beach it's just a car.

Jut put some lines and a trombone on it and get Porsche to change the CoA to include "Auxiliary Oil Cooler"

Now you have an original oil cooler!

I can imagine a mad scramble to locate period correct thermal reactors, EGR pumps, US spec headlamps and 5-blade fans. :rolleyes: YMMV.

I'm sensing a significant shift in Porsche ownership, thus suggest a new forum category called, "Period Correctness" (acronym also happens to be PC) so preservationists and concours-types can hang out and discuss topics such as ROI, auction news, my latest "flips", storage and preservation, "What's correct-What's not", Show your 911 tool kit, etc. Sub categories could include Hot Wheel Collectibles, vintage Porsche designer clothing and accessories, my autographs, invoices and repair orders.......

......while driver/owners resume regular "Technical Forum" discussion.

:)
Sherwood

I'd like to know what an EGR pump is

Yeah, there's both ways to look at it. I guess I've just seen too many cars absolutely destroyed by POs.

What a gem this 74 was. Much of it was held together my straight slot sheet metal screws. Glad the owner had no idea most of the car was built from a scrapped 76 Turbo. I enjoyed cutting it up.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1409246271.jpg

EGR=EXTRA GRAND on RESALE:D

Ahhhhh... The old "originality" debate.

Does adding an inline fuse for the dash wiring to prevent a possible fire hazard reduce the value of the car because it wasn't original? Ok so you can't see it.

Well the 911 didn't originally have headlight relays. Hmmm. Lots of people do that mod. Ok that is reversible.

Some parts are NLA and the replacements aren't exactly the same as the original. If you need it to make your car work properly you don't have much choice.

"Upgrades" are not original. A lot of cars have turbo lower valve covers that were not original. So we have a special class of stuff that is somehow considered to be an "acceptable" non-original.

The way the OP phrased the question seems to imply that what he is asking about is resell value. That is not really an easy question to answer because the seller doesn't have control over how a buyer values the car. I've done a few things to my car that would probably cause a concours judge to have an "originality OCD" seizure.

You know what? I couldn't care less. The things I have done have been in the name of improving my personal enjoyment and attempting to ensure that the car is around for me to enjoy for a long time.

Ok, so let's say I decide to sell the car and two people show up. First guy looks the car over and says "you changed this and that, it's going to cost me a bunch of money to put the car back the way it was" and low-balls my asking price. Second guy looks at the car and says the car is great.

My point is buyers are looking for different things so ANYTHING you do (or don't do) to the car affects a potential buyer. Ok, so if there are things you DON'T do to the car a potential buyer might look at another car that already has some "extras" done to it and might buy the other car because there is less work to do.

You see what I mean? You can look at it both ways.

Ok, one other point to consider. I saw a longhood the other day that someone had "upgraded" to a late Carerra body in the mid '90s. That car today - as an "original" - would be worth far, far more than it is now. So back then someone thought they were increasing the value of the car by making it look more modern. Now everyone wants their cars to look like early longhoods! So, yes there are things you can do to a car that can drastically change the value of it. But it's hard to predict those things. The number of people who are originality "purist" collectors is a small, small percentage of the older car market. For the rest of us it's about enjoyment. In another ten years everyone might be trying to make their cars look like impact bumper SCs. Who knows?

And then there is just butt-azz ugly and that never changes. :D

Know whats the sad part? A 1976 with 43,000 miles, someone missed out on a lot of smiles. Less than 900 miles per year....even fewer smiles....the good Dr would be tisk,tisking in he grave.

A lot of folks say "It's my car, I'll do what I want to it!" This is just not true. Your 911 will belong to many more owners in the future. And when folks say just keep all the original parts so that the car is easily reversible, I just wonder how many of those old parts get lost? Guess what? They do all the time! I have read plenty of for sale ads where the original fenders or parts are long gone.

This is how I approach my cars. While I will respectfully advise the OP regarding his perspective and goals, not what I would do with my own car. I would have already installed the Carrera cooler if I owned it.

My '67 912 currently has the interior gutted, it getting a TRE harness bar, replica sport seats and the rest of a "sport purposes" interior. Also has a 5spd swap, 911SC front suspension and brakes and possibly even an engine swap in its future.

Anything air cooled these days is an appreciating asset. But if you don't personally appreciate it, what's the point of owning it, right? :cool:

Sorry for the acronym, Exhaust Gas Recirculation. But I assume you're on the internet and not on a censored connection in China. Wikipedia has a more detailed explanation (and probably more accurate than mine or others), or the same one if I had copied and pasted it here.

The best thing about a 911 is that it is a kind of modular racer. I don't think there is anything wrong with taking advantage of that as long as your not cutting or drilling anything to the chassis or body(unless your building a real racer), so in that make it your own 911 that will still gain value no matter what anyway...enjoy you track car made for the streets.