buying advice requested

[RBS]

Hi this is my first post to this list and yes I am a Porsche owner wanabe. I've done my homework, (reading this BB, the rennlist, Yahoo, Excellence mag, 911 buyers guide, and bothering the folks at Kelly/Moss motorsports), and have decided I want either an SC or a Carrera coupe with the correct upgrades but is very close to original. First question: Am I better off buying an older, low mileage, garage queen, (SC) or a new Carrera (87-89) with more miles and a spotty maintenance history? This brings me to my second question: Floating out on e-bay there is a black '87 Carrera Coupe with 83,000 miles that looks good from the photos. I talked to the owner who thinks he is third owner, and has some maintenance records but has never kept any since purchasing the car. He did give the # number of the garage that has worked on the car for the past 5 years. Is this a car worth perusing or should I look for one with a detailed maintenance history? What is a fair price for this car? Should I even consider buying a car off e-bay without a PPI?

TIA

Rob

[Superman]

No, you should not consider buying a Porsche without a PPI.

[nostatic]

How lucky do you feel? There is no single answer to this. The most important thing is to look at and drive a few cars at least. These cars vary wildly in condition, and PICTURES CAN LIE. I would never buy a car without a PPI from a good independent shop, but some people here have. I actually ended up not believing much of the PPI I got anyway. I also wouldn't buy a car I couldn't actually touch unless it was from someone I knew, or was gone through by someone I knew and was as picky as I am.

I would rather have a nice SC than a ratty Carrera, but it really depends on your budget and patience. BA's values are a decent starting point, but it all comes down to condition, condition, condition.

For an '87 coupe w/83K, price could be anywhere from $16-24K depending on condition, records, source, etc.

[Rick Lee]

I have an '87 Carrera and sort of jumped on it a little too quickly. I got a few surprises, but nothing I can't handle and I really enjoy the learning process and doing my own repairs. I am partial to the '87-'89 Carreras. I don't remember that eBay ad, but make sure you find out if/when the clutch update was done. I was told mine was done, but not shown the records. Guess what happened. Yes, I ended up doing the G50 clutch update myself about a year later for just under $1000. I loved every minute of the experience. But it was not what I bargained for. If you get serious with such a Carrera, PM me and I'll tell you what all to look for and to specify you want especially looked at in your PPI. There are good deals on G50 Carreras out there and also some very overpriced ones. 83k miles sounds about right for an '87 that was not over- or underdriven.

[Don Plumley]

'87 owner here. I'm clearly biased, but think the 87-89 Carrera is a sweet spot. Since my buddy Nostatic has a pristine SC, he and I should cover both sides of the argument - and he is potentially one of the best sources of info on how to pick SC's or Carreras.

As to the choice between a garage queen SC and the 87, it kinda depends on what you want to do with the car. Do you like the idea of working on it a bit yourself or do you want to wax it? Interested in the track or in concours? Or just take the Garage Queen out and make it into a driver? In any case, you are dealing with a 25 or 15 year old car - so garage queen or not you must be mentally prepared that it is not a Honda. Things are going to break, wear out, etc. (And aside from SCWDP membership, there are some cool things about SC's, as there are positives about a 3.2 DME motor and a G50)

Having records is really nice. I know what updates/repairs have been done since the first tune-up. So there is a list of things that I know I most likely won't have to do - like replace the clutch right away (sorry Richard!). As Todd will tell you, even a great PPI might not uncover everything, so caveat emptor.

As for the eBay car, I'd want the garage records and a clean PPI at minimum as a precondition for bidding on the car (BTW, It concerns me that a PO would just throw out the records). If the seller is unwilling to have a PPI stand in front of a final purchase, run the other direction quickly. Frankly, the market is a bit soft, and there is decent inventory.

Follow BA's advice: Buy the best car you can afford. My corollary is: Cars that have been driven hard and put down wet usually come to bite you in the wallet.

Good Luck!

[Jdub]

You might consider joining a local club and seeing what is available from these owners. Generally they are pretty careful about upkeep and would not like to be know in the club as the person who sold a new owner a lemon.

OTOH, I paid about 5K for a '78SCTarga and have learned a great deal about the SCs from wrenching and reading. This has made me a better purchaser, so I know my next SC will be PPI'd but with the addition of what I know I will be in a very good position to rate the car.

So my point here is that this is a bit of a crapshoot. I think you are really looking at the right range of cars though, between the Carrera and the SC. Many feel these models can be grouped together, but if you wish to separate, you'll find the Carreras more modern and a bit more comfortable. The SC is a bit more bare bones (I prefer manual windows and a single flag mirror as an example) so the simplicity can be a perk as well.

Now, the eBay car: no paperwork? Everyone knows this is gold - why doesn't he keep the paper? Strange. I'd avoid that one, especially without a PPI (a must have). If you can, find a buddy who can lead you from the bad ones. Again, a local club guy who knows something and for whose work you might pay.

Let us know how this goes. This board is an incredible resource and we love to live vicariously.

John

[KTL]

Just to preface my question, i'm not being the Devil's Advocate here and poo-pooing the PPI whatsoever. I'd honestly like to know the answer to this one.

What exactly are the PPI techs. doing different than a somewhat knowledegable Porsche person would do when looking over a car?

The only things I can think of that the PPI guy does more than Joe Shmoe is pop the valve covers to check for head studs and valve guides, spark plug condition, check alternator output, compression and leakdown? Not that these aren't important of course! I'm just asking to see what items I might be missing.

Otherwise, the other items on the checklist are all visible to the knowledgeable buyer, no? Items like oil return tubes, fan belt, brake components, clutch feel, tires, oil lines (cam, tensioner, mains, oil cooler), shocks and struts, cv boots, tie rods, engine bay wiring (leads, sensors, fuse panel), exhaust condition, etc. etc. etc. The list goes on.

BTW, I TOTALLY "rolled the dice" on my car. It was shiny, relatively clean and drove pretty well.................... I was sold. After I got my hands dirty, I realized I probably paid $2-3K too much for my car. But, the learning experience has been outstanding (albeit at the expense of a good bit of $$$!!!!) and none of the stuff I did to the car absolutely had to be done and no major problems have occurred, so i'd have to say I got kinda lucky with my gamble. I'd hate to see someone gamble like I did and end up with a car that has a tired motor on top of a lot of other things that are gonna cost considerable money to make things right. Do the right thing and have someone who knows plenty about the cars check them out for you. In the end, it'll pay for itself. If I knew what I know now, back when I bought my car? I think I would have passed on it.

[Rick Lee]

Here's something rarely mentioned about a PPI: an pro wrench is not going to get emotionally attached to the car. I know I'd be sitting by the phone, dying of curiosity and suspense, just looking for a way around any potential problem. It's one thing if you live in CA and are not real picky. But if you live in NoVA and have your heart set on a triple black '87-'89 Carrera Coupe, well they don't just grow on trees around here. I found two and bought the second one. I rolled the dice and had an experiece similar to Kevin's. Now I'm sure I could do a good PPI, save a leakdown or compression test. I help out with our local PCA's tech inspections and have no problem locating problems in well cared-for 911's. But I'd rather pay a trusted professional to tell me a flat yea or nay - and perhaps save me from myself.

[LeeH]

I bought my car long distance without a PPI and got lucky. However, I'll never do it again.

Read this thread to see why:
How much is this photo worth? (or why PPI's are a really good idea)

[nostatic]

Originally posted by KTL
What exactly are the PPI techs. doing different than a somewhat knowledegable Porsche person would do when looking over a car?

Your key word is "knowledgeable". I got pretty good at looking at cars, but I still didn't consider myself competent to pick up everything. A good PPI will do compression and leakdown (of course that is a whole other argument). They will also rack the car (something I can't do), so it is a lot easier to see crash damage and physical/mechanical condition. In a perfect world they will also check all the major systems and test drive...you'd like to think that they know what a good car feels like just by driving (I think I had a pretty good feel for this though). They can also tell you how much it will cost to fix any problems.

For an experienced p-car person, a PPI may be unnecessary. But for someone that doesn't know the cars, I think it is important if nothing else, for some peace of mind. Then again, I had 2 PPIs done, and both were wrong to certain degrees, so ymmv.

[sayah]

Having purchased a car sight unseen on e-bay my advise would be to go ahead but limit your expectations. For example, my expectations were the following.:

1. No significatant rust. The body had to not have any evidence of an accident.

2. I wanted a car that did not need any painting.

3. A fair price.


Here is what I didn't care too much about.

1. That all vin numbers matched.

2. I wanted good mechanicals but knew I could fix almost anything with the help of my machine shop operator friend.

3. Interior parts, exterior bits and pieces.

I bought MACHS NIX, my 75 911, on ebay sight unseen, except for photos and without a PPI. The car had just undergone a recent respray, and had a engine swap.

Surprises:

1. Almost nothing was aligned or adjusted propertly, truck lid, windshield wipers, the list goes on and on.

2. I got a car I could use as an everyday driver right from jump street. It leaked, it driped, it smoked, but it started ever time.

3. It need new cv joints.

All in all I probabily overpaid but I got what I wanted without any really nasty surprises. I took into account my needs and strengths and got a car to match that.

Hope this helps,
Sayah

[don911]

I like the G50 cars but that is what I have so that doesn't count for much.
I wouldn't automatically equate higher mileage to a ratty car either. My car has over 200K and is in nice condition. The interior is very nice and the exterior is nice but not perfect...daily driver rock ships, etc...
Too low of mileage is a bad thing in my opinion.
I bought my car long distance with no PPI. (too bad I didn't know about this bbs then) Like LeeH, I feel I got lucky and wouldn't do that again.

[Jack Olsen]

Well, it looks like you've come to the right place. I didn't buy my Porsche through ebay, but I did buy a freakin' British luxury car that way, so I think it can be done.

Here's what I did. Before I bid, I wrote to the seller and said that I was interested in the car, bur would only bid if he agreed to the following terms: that if I was the high bidder, I would be able to arrange (at my expense) a PPI by a shop in his area of my choosing. Then, if that inspection revealed that the car wasn't in as-new condition (to the extent that bringing it back to as-new condition would cost more than 5% of what I bid), the whole transaction would be considered null and void, and we would be free to start negotiations for the car again from scratch, with no preconditions, at my option. He agreed to this in writing before I placed a bid.

The car turned out fine. (Knock on wood, since it just finished its factory warranty.)

[steve911]

Rob--
I'll add this to the other information already posted - the middle ground of the middle years (84-86) Carreras. IMO, they're a bit more civilized than the SCs (I can hear the whump, whump of the SCWDP artillery already), though they don't have the G50 transmission.

I bought my car on ebay, long distance, though I did have a ppi done. would I do it again? no, mainly because I believe I was incredibly lucky. everything worked out the way it was supposed to. would it again? I don't think I'd tempt fate again.

As to what does a PPI get you that a knowledgeable buyer could do? It comes down to your skill set and comfort level. My mechanical skills are a 1 compared to the rest of the guys on this board - I can't understand most of what they say, let alone get up the guts to even do it myself, but I can live with myself on that and I've got a good mechanic when I need it. So the PPI helped me understand what issues were facing me on my car before I plunked down my $$.

Just my .02 - but whatever you decide to do, know that you'll have great comraderie and assistance with whatever issues you find.

[RBS]

First I would like to thank everyone for their advice. This board seems like a great resource which I surely will be taping into as my buying and ownership adventure proceed. For the record, this car will be my sunny day/summer toy. It might get to a few drivers school but there are no plans to autoX it. I am not afraid of wrenching on the car myself, (I am an old BMW guy), but I have learned to leave the difficult stuff to the pros.

Here is the update: I talked to mechanic who has worked on the car and he had only seen it few times in five years. He works on the owner's other cars and feels they are well taken care of but doesn't really know much about the 911. So- I am not going to bid on it but I will e-mail the owner and tell him if it doesn't sell to get in touch with me (I think he wants too much for it). The car is located less than 3 hours from my house and this way I can take my time checking it out and get a PPI if it is still a candidate for purchase. With the lack of documented maintenance my guess is a minimum of $1000 for a major service not including brakes, tires, and who knows what else. Until then I plan to find the local PCA chapter and keep checking the ads.

[nostatic]

Is this the car?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1855402407

If so, here are my initial impressions. It has aftermarket wheels, white guages, and the owner talks about the stereo system and toys. He then says his mechanic went through it last year and all it needed were plug wires. So what does it need *this* year? My guess would be a lot more. I would pass just based on that, but when you consider his $24.9K buy it now price, I'd say keep looking. Just imho...depends on what you want in a car. For me, I like them original. Just for comparison sake, check out this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1855889679

Or this one that sold for $25K at a dealer:

http://www.ajusa.com/cgi-bin/showroom/details?car_id=27

Also track the prices of the Ebay cars. I see a lot of them showing up over and over because they don't come close to the reserve. That tells you something about the market.

[RBS]

Nostatic - Yep - that's the car. I knew the rims were wrong but I did not know about the gauges. The red one in CA is a very nice but I don't really want a red one. I am looking for black or dark blue. Any idea what a set of the correct rims cost?

[nostatic]

Black should be fairly easy to find. As for wheels, here's a set that is already up to $400:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1856211849

Rob,
just to add my 2p re. long distance purchases.

Distances not quite as far in the UK, but I still decided a 3 hr drive to see a car should be postponed until I got the car checked out at my expense.

Found a specialist garage local to the seller, and arranged with them for the car to be checked over. They reported back to me that it wasn't in showroom condition - but nothing significantly wrong that would affect my decision to buy.......

bought the car......

needs a new clutch, or at least very major tweaks to the clutch, also wrong battery, leaking shock absorbers, windscreen delaminating etc. etc.

Maybe not enough to scrap the sale, but I would have wanted price drop - but by the time I'd travelled up the seller knew I was far, far less likely to just walk away.

Guess it's best if you post a thread, asking for info. on Specialists in the area close to the car you want to buy.

However, I have since seen the 'specialist' I used listed in the 'experts' section of a club magasine!

[pwd72s]

"Oxford"? That's a really sad tale...