Clutch to the floor & Stuck there - bravely taking this on

[KKothand]

Hello all, I experienced clutch issue as follows, and I have never done this (or much repair) before.

while shifting to second gear heard a noise and bam the clutch pedal went to the floor and no shifting anymore. Managed to drive it in 1st gear to get her home. From everything I have read, it appears it could be a broken cable at the transmission, or at the pedal cluster, or something at the pedal cluster itself is broke or damaged. I have done the following and need some direction before I proceed into uncharted territory.

1. Looked under the transmission and didn't see anything obviously broke or loose.
2. Opened up the floor board to reveal the pedal cluster and no damage or broken clevis that connects to the clutch cable. No pieces of broken metal anywhere in there.

I am attaching some pics of the bottom of the transmission and the clutch cluster clevis and cable connection that I took.

I am planning on replacing the bushings with the Pelican Kit, but before I proceed I would like to know if the clutch cable indeed is broken somewhere between the transmission and the pedal cluster; or could it be more serious clutch assembly issues besides the obvious culprits. Guess have to put the car on 4 jack stands to get this all done (?), as I have only 2.

Car is a 1982 911SC, with 130K miles, rebuilt tranny+flywheel+Clutch+shifter installed at 114K miles.

Thanks in advance for any input.

[garment]

Interesting choice of words in the body of your post; see my own clutch troubles documented here:

BAM! Clutch pedal to the floor!

[javadog]

Disconnect the cable at either end (only one). If you can pull on it and it pulls out, it's a broken cable. If not, it's more serious. Might want to flat-bed it to a shop at that point.

JR

[Trackrash]

Originally Posted by javadog

Disconnect the cable at either end (only one). If you can pull on it and it pulls out, it's a broken cable. If not, it's more serious. Might want to flat-bed it to a shop at that point.

JR

After the cable, make SURE the pedal has not sheared the pin on its shaft . Then it's drop the motor time.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/parts/pedals/pedal_assy_big.JPG

[Walt Fricke]

Gordon points to a rather likely cause - the roll pin which locks the clutch pedal to the cross shaft in the pedal couster may have sheared. This allowed the pedal to rotate to the floor without turning the shaft.

You should be able to pull the pedal back toward its normal position, and see the short arm inside the tunnel (shown in your great picture) move backward.

Fix usually involves removing the pedal cluster, but I've replaced a pin with things in the car.

If you can pry the pedal sideways off the shaft, you can then drive out the three broken pieces of the roll pin, reinstall with holes lined up, pound in new pin, and you are good. Maybe there isn't enough room, though.

I've been able to rotate the pedal back to where the pins line up, and drive them through, though I don't recall how I did this, if I did. Anyway, I've been able to do an in situ replacement.

[fanaudical]

Based on the pictures, I'm guessing it's a separated cable.

(End at the clutch linkage appears to be in the "relaxed state", but the end by the pedal cluster seems to be all the way to the floor. The only way I can conceive of that happening is with a broken/separated cable.)

[arry911]

I could be wrong but I can't see the nuts that hold the cable on at the gear box end, maybe the threads have gone on cable or the nuts.

[mreid]

The pedal end is full extended, but the clutch lever end is loose on the lever= broken cable.

You are lucky it's an easy fix!

[KKothand]

Thank you ALL for some great feedback; feel like I have a team to help me out here. Garment your post link has some good information; learnt much & I saved the link. I now have to hesitate using the term "BAM"! Ha..ha.

JR I followed your tip, and disconnected the cable at the tranny, and was able to pull at least 3 inch of cable, I stopped there. Looked at the clevis end in the pedal cluster and it seemed still intact. looks like the cable is broken in between the cable clevis and this location. Am I correct?

Trackrash: Should I still look at the shear pin? Have to be part of the check once the pedal cluster is removed I think.

Guess a bunch of you had the right failure pin pointed, since it looks like a broken cable. I will have to start the cable replacement and pedal cluster bushings "upgrade" project now.

Thanks again!

[KKothand]

Walt Fricke, you should have seen me take the picture, much cursing and swearing stuck underneath there trying to get the picture with my iphone, hoping I will be able to see what I wanted to. I am impressed you were able to work under there.

[rwest]

The shear pin(roll pin) gets removed to take apart the pedal cluster to redo the bushings. FYI, new bushings make the pedals real smooth, you'll be happy you did it.

[Walt Fricke]

KK - with an intact system, if you disconnect the cable at the transmission and let go, typically the cable will retract and the clutch pedal will go down to the floor all by itself. If you pull on the cable, the pedal will rise back up again. This is one of those things where another person as an observer makes things easier, and you don't have to kludge things, go back and forth, etc.

However, I suggest before doing anything more you take that cable which is disconnected at the transmission lever and pull on it until one of two things happens: at 3.1" or something just a bit farther than you have pulled, it stops and you can't pull any more. That is a cable which isn't broken, at least not completely broken.

If it is broken, it should pull all the way out, but you will know for sure what to do: replace the broken cable, and don't fuss around with the pedal cluster - at least don't unless you want a project, like replacing pedal cluster bushings. No reason to leave a broken cable in place.

Replacing a cable is a lot easier (the pretzel position problem is about the same for both) than removing and reinstalling a pedal cluster. So you want to completely rule out a broken cable before moving on to the retaining pin.

Pulling on an intact cable with a broken retaining pin will probably cause the pedal to move up, because the friction between the hole in the pedal end and the cross shaft is going to be more than high enough for that. Just not high enough to release a clutch no matter how you adjust things. But having a cable pull out is pretty definitive.

The only broken cable I have had frayed where it comes out of the chassis tube. I think the cable sheath wasn't properly seated or something. But it broke without warning, and I drove clutchless for 100 or so miles over mountain passes and sweated stoplights to get home.

My VWs gave warning - when a few strands of the cable fail, the cable lengthens, and you have to put the clutch pedal farther in to get release. And then farther. And then either to the floor, or it just breaks. The likely places for breaks are at the fasteners on the ends, where the cable is swaged. And you can see and inspect both of those. Your pictures make those look fine. But a break internally (I've mentioned the only wear point I know of) you can't see.

The roll pin issue is separate from the broken cable issue.

[KKothand]

Walt, thanks for your tips once again. YES it is indeed a broken cable. Now the lazy part of me doesn't want to mess with the clutch pedal bushings. The clutch shaft arm inside the tunnel is in good condition, even the plastic bushing looks new (see pics). Everything had a good amount of white grease. It was such a relief when the cable kept on coming from the bottom of the tranny. I did find out that my clevis clip was installed "upside down" compared to other pictures I have seen making it a bit difficult to pry it off. It is easier to push down than to yank it up (my clips were facing down), as I had to do. A needle nose plier and a screw driver eventually helped me get that off.

The cable clevis seems to be in good shape as well, I will examine once I remove it from the cable itself. Finding time to do this during work days is a challenge. I tried to order the clutch cable from our Host, but looks like they are out of stock at the moment. Is any one brand of cable better than the other? My old cable had a marking MADE IN ITALY. I would rather spend the money on critical items like this than skimp. Any suggestions welcome.

Will keep you all posted....

[Walt Fricke]

If the pedal cluster bushings don't seem worn, so things wiggle around in ways you can sort of tell they shouldn't, this sounds like something you can well afford to defer. Certainly until you have some disposable time.

I am unaware of any options when it comes to clutch cables. You could try your nearest Porsche dealer?

What I would want to know is where it broke, because that way you can start looking at why it broke. Other than the ends where it is swaged, a steel cable should last literally forever if it is always pulled in a straight line, is never stretched beyond its tensile limits (and I don't care how strong you are, you can't do that - you could lift the whole car with that cable), and never rubbed over something which will abrade it.

So you will want to figure out how it came to rub over something when it was being pushed up or down on a surface. And see what can be done about that. My guess would be that there is something amiss in the Bouden (Bowden?) tube. That's the black covered tube which runs along the transmission before the cable sticks out. I think that is a separate piece, needs to be ordered separately? Take a good look at yours. See if the break occurred within that tube, or at its front end. Examine the steel tube which sticks out a little way from the chassis just in front of the transmission mount. The black outer tube sockets onto that protruding chassis tube. That is an area which can cause trouble.

Sort of like electrical fuses - always good to figure out why one blew before just replacing one.

[KKothand]

Ok, here is where I am. Removed the cable and found that it was broke inside the metal swagged fitting where it connects to the larger black tube of the cable that goes into firewall. No other anomalies found. Please let me know if the following steps make sense, and if I am missing anything.

1.Remove the accelerator cable connections.
2.Remove the brace plate by removing the 8mm allen head bolt (hidden behind push rod) - some neat tips was posted in this forum to access this.
3.Remove the push rod by removing the bottom clip, and at the top near the master cyl housing.
4.Remove the two nuts under the car that are screwed on to the welded bolts of pedal housing.
5.Remove the two nuts on the floor that hold the pedal cluster housing/bracket.
Now I should be able to get the pedal cluster out of car, correct? I tried to attach a picture but was not allowed due to not being the right extension. I will work on that.

As always thanks in advance.

[KKothand]

[Walt Fricke]

Aha - your cable broke right where mine did in 1985! When you put in a new cable, make sure the Bowden (Boudon?) tube sockets securely around the pipe end sticking out of the firewall. If that gets so it is not socketed, the cable can rub on the end of the pipe, eventually breaking.

Looks like you have a case of whynotitis, or whileIamthereitis fussing with the pedal assembly. But it won't hurt to disassemble, check bushings, relubricate, and reinstall. And with power brakes, you don't have to fuss with master cylinders and such.

[KKothand]

Hi Walt, thanks for the tip on the fire wall tube where the cable will go in. So, the tube end on the firewall will be "inserted" into the clutch cable fitting, if I understand your "securely around the pipe" statement. I am waiting on the cable and bronze bushings to arrive, and managed to remove complete the brace plate "removal", which I think so far was the biggest challenge, i.e. removing the 8mm bolt with the clutch pedal in the way fully loaded with spring tension.

Yes indeed, regarding the whileiamthereitis..plus the PO maintenance records from 2012 stated that the brake pedal needs to be looked at for ply, so thought it is time to do this as well. In my driving experience it did feel "hard", but didn't seem to impact the braking performance if you will. I finished a DE event this May for 2 days w/o issues.

I do have a question on removing the accelerator cable coming from the tunnel and connecting to the bell crank (my numbered picture above ID # 1 @ bottom). There was a fine clip around the ball that I removed but not sure how the accel cable disconnects. Do I have to remove, loosen the nut at the end near the ball fitting?

[Walt Fricke]

KK - You aren't thinking of removing the accelerator cable, are you? To pull the pedal cluster you just pop the female screw-on end of the cable from the male ball which is attached to the bell crank. If you can't get it off by hand, a small open end wrench can be handy to apply leverage and outward force.

Properly, I think, this ball and socket are secured with a wire clip. The straight end of the clip goes through a hole in the socket. You can see what looks like such a hole just a bit beyond the end of the red arrow in your picture. Part # 900 169 014 02 - see the Group 7 pedals etc section of the parts book.

I had had pedal clusters out and in for some years without one of these - I didn't know it should be there, and my older cars didn't have one. Then I suffered a rash of incidents where the socket would slip off the ball on the race track, back in the engine bay. Unfortunate. So now I have those on one of my track cars in the back. Not on the other. And not on this front bell crank. They are a bit of a pain and struggle to get in or out, given the tight access, and things haven't come loose up there. Your choice.

If you have one, it is clipped around the bottom of the barrel, right by where the socket starts. It certainly isn't clipped around the top, where it would show up in your very sharp photo.

[KKothand]

Walt, no I am not removing the accelerator cable. Thanks for the tip on popping off the accel cable, it was very simple, and it came right off.

I now have completed the pedal cluster removal and it is out of the car. I am bit stumped here since the brake push rod is still attached, and I think I have to remove this to get the cluster bracket cleaned up, etc. Do I have to remove the brake pedal to remove the push rod? Any input/help much appreciated. I have also decided to remove the brace plate to allow some clean up in the foot well inside the car. I have attached a image file. Thx!

Took the push rod off, I just had to snap it out. Don't know why I didn't try it first, this is truly a DUH moment.