prirotizing HP gain methods based on cost
 

Prioritizing hp-gain methods based on cost

I have read several nice threads regarding gaining horse power for your Porsche 911. I have a Wide-body Porsche 911 with 3.2. Considering the relatively low power of the 3.2 engine compared with today's engine, I am frankly sick & tired of being taken over with most cars (including Mazda 3s!). I have been wanting to sink a turbo engine in the car, and get it over with - however, I have estimated the cost running over $15K (in Canada; and 12K in the US).

So, if you were ranking the best way to gain power (I am not talking meager 15-25 hp), how would you rank your suggestion, its hp gain and the associated approximate cost. I believe the information gathered in this thread would be encompassing and valuable to many in the future.

So, here is the result of my search
To change engine to a turbo.
1. Engine cost: Approx 10K (LA dismantler ), which includes the harness
2. Installation cost (approx $1500) - if DIY, you get no warranty from the vendor selling the engine.

Thank you for your time and interest.
The car-nut

Sell your car and buy a Mazda 3. Probably make money from the deal. So that would be #1.

I'm sick and tired of being overtaken when I go out on a jog. I want to run like Usain Bolt, but unfortunately I was manufactured in 64 and I'm too fat for my own good.

What you want is expensive, and would take away from what the car is. Personally I'm enjoying my 3.2 with about 240ish at the crank and about 300 lbs removed from it, more power IMO would change the essence of the what the car is.

Stay on the twisties if you don't want to be overtaken, our cars are more than capable there.

Good luck if you should taken on the endeavor though, it's nice that there's such a broad spectrum of directions people take on this site.

This.

I could probably sell my 88 911 and get 30K, which can get me a nice used C63 sedan (ok plus maybe 5K). I get 2 more doors and larger rear end, twice the HP... but then it's not a classic 911.

If I spend 5K to improve the 3.2, I will not get double HP. I can get maybe 20 more. That's it.

The truth is, no matter what you do, there will always be a faster car.

With that said, it's all about power to weight with these cars. Set an achieveable goal, like 10 lbs per 1 hp. The will get you a low 5 sec 0-60 car. that is if you can get it to shift fast enough! So shedding weight is the cheapest means of adding performance.

As far as adding HP, do a top end and add displacement (3.4 L) and cams. Then an exhaust with a map tune to make it all work together. That would give you some noticeable gains.

Or, swap in a 3.6.

Very funny quote! I was made in 1963, and am also too out of shape to run fast.

To the OP: there are no winners when you enter the "arms race". There will always be faster cars out there.

Just enjoy the nice Porsche you already have.

The only sure cure is an LS3 V8 transplant. An unbearable choice for many. Or just buy a Corvette Z06.

Porsche does what it does very well and a keenly driven 3.2L on a race track is a formidable weapon. Drag racing on the street plays to the greatest weakness of a 3.2 Carrera (straight line acceleration) and nearly always sets up an embarrassing loss to far lesser cars. A fools errand me thinks. Always more rewarding to play to a cars inherent strengths.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/chevrolet_corvette_z06-vs-porsche_911_32_cs_club_sport.html

Have you considered close-ratio gears?

You'd need to spend $16-25K on the engine to match the improvements made by the correct gearstack for your car. :) :)

Surprised to see that SOME people:
(a) Do not (or CANNOT?!) read the post
(b) become too cute!

I make it simple: PLEASE READ AND ANSWER ONLY TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS:

1. What have you done to boost your 3.2 hp?
2. What was the cost and what was the hp gained?

If I wanted to seek your advice on what else to drive, I would have asked so. My daily driver (2008 Cayman S) offers the hp I need; however, that was not my question!

Thank to those who can hopefully read ENGLISH!

I'm pre-356, have low compression, high leak-down and require high test zinfandel to run without wheezing and popping. In addition my suspension is shot as is my exterior as well as my interior.

But.... I'm still getting from here to there - kinda sorta.

I bought a Mazda 3 and annoy the hell out of stuck up sourpusses out on the track.

A Mazda 3 does the 1/4 mi in 15.6s and 0-60 in 7.2s. Well set up 3.2s can do that in under ~14s and 5s. I've seen lots of 3.2 that only make 150 hp because of silly things like not achieving full throttle or being way out of tune - have you considered yours might be of those?

1. Join the local PCA, attend some autocrosses, get as many rides as you can to gauge what kind of horsepower you think would be to your liking.

2. Buy Wayne's "How to rebuild and Modify Porsche 911 Engines" and Bruce Anderson's "Porsche 911 Performance Handbook"
I believe all the practical upgrades are covered in those books. The cost of each upgrade is easy to calculate.

Now, if you want to start swapping motors, it is a different ball game. Most doable swaps have been covered here in Pelican.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...7L._SY355_.jpg

I recommend buying a backup engine to put in once you blow the original up so you can pass your car to on the next caretaker.

I hear a couple of SR20s pull a premium before Race Wars, so check the calendar before you order just in case 3.2L prices have an associated jump.

Very, very true. Total weight matters, but power to weight ratio can't be disregarded either. Losing 1 lb/HP (roughly what 300 lbs @ 240HP represents for a 3.2) is very significant.

The '77 weighed in @ 2490 with Fuchs, a 930/60 & 915 but without carpet, spare, fuel or tools. It was a monster with 330 HP, but it ended up with 425 (and some extra weight).

I've never driven a 911 with over 10 lbs/HP - but the difference between 330HP and 425HP in the same car is really quite marked...

:)
Ask a lame question, get lame answers. You already looked into a 930 transplant and your caveat "(I am not talking meager 15-25 hp)" eliminated every other reasonable option. Getting much beyond 80hp/L with N/A air cooled heads is the stuff of fairies and unicorns.

As stated above, this is definitely what you need:
LS3 Crate Engine - Race Engine | Chevrolet
I have not done this myself but several have. Expect about $20k all in.
Anything else other than weight reduction is just re-arranging deck chairs.

Still people cannot READ!

What part of my question is "lame"? For God's sake, if you cannot answer a simple question, please do NOT!

I was hoping someone suggest what this buddy did for instance. He turbo-charged his engine for much lesser cost than transplanting a 930 (which I just found it on the Rennlist)!

"In my build I spent $2150 all set and done and made 315 WHP at 7psi. The car runs great and sounds great. It's a good feeling DESTROYING an STI in the straights. More people should do this. Good luck all!!!!"

Yes, that is exactly what you should do to your car. Enjoy! SmileWavy

Thank you for clarifying! As it turns out, I do have a local PCA guy that turbocharged his 3.2 engine and is living large getting well over 320 HP for well south 6k with a lot of DIY of course.

But now I'm not going to tell you. :rolleyes:

I chatted with this poster just a couple months ago via email. His factory turbo look 3,2 w/bolt on turbo is still going strong.

Sorry I don't have any smart arse comments for the peanut gallery. :)

Turboed my Carrera 3.2, youtubes and pics - Rennlist Discussion Forums

Not sure if this is a 3.2, but here are some numbers. Thanks to Wayner.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1413840067.jpg

Doesnt sound very Canadian.

My thoughts exactly.

Watch the attitude.

On the topic of mazda 3s, my wife daily drives a "speed3" and it is a track beast is stock form. I put on some super sports and hawk HP+ brakes and it devoured the (intermediate experienced class) competition at our local BMW school. By the end of my first school I could catch a 997 carrera c2, and c2s (pushing hard). 997 turbo still had my number. Second school there were no 997's but the upgrade between my ears had me going far faster than before. I bet I could given the 997 turbo a good run (unless that driver upgraded between his ears faster than i did). President joked that he might need to start banning Asian cars. Hard on front tires however. 280lbs/ft torque at 2k rpm is hard to beat. Real giant killer.

To answer the questions:

1. What have you done to boost your 3.2 hp?
- verified correct throttle linkage settings
- verify health of engine (leak-down and compression).
- test pipe, free flowing exhaust, steve wong chip
- non-hp upgrades were bridgestone RE-11a's, Toyo RA1's, pagid orange brake pads, lowered stiffened and corner balanced suspension, strut brace, harness bar.

2. What was the cost and what was the hp gained?
- it cost me the price of the car (someone else did the work)
- do not know hp gained (no dyno pre and post mods) but data from steve wong would estimate up to 240hp (33 hp from stock 207hp), but given engine condition I would estimate 5+hp less.

Other options:
1. rebuild engine. Price depends - 5-10K+ for a stock refresh (top end). Making it fresh again can give you back a lot of the possible stock hp lost with age. Spend $$$ and consider adding the following...
- euro compression pistons
- cams
- intake bore and hone
- race carbs
- balance/blueprint engine, increase rpm limit
- lightweight flywheel/clutch assembly (faster acceleration, not more power)
- race headers/exhaust dyno tuned by someone like steve wong
- chip tune to run 93+ octane
- 3.4 or 3.5 conversion (will need twin plug conversion)
- key is to get chip dyno tuned to your new engine parameters, otherwise your efforts will be for naught.

2. Boost:
- Turbo
- supercharger
Talk to a reputable engine builder. I am sure there are people who will bolt them on cheap, but doing it properly to get max benefit/reliability out of it would be an art. Can get quite expensive especially since investment is best spent if you also rebuild the engine at the same time. No use going half way. Estimate 20k if you want it done right with a fresh engine. Ho much power? How much streetablity/reliability/money to you want to sacrifice?

Power, reliability, cheap. Pick any two.

3. New engine
- 3.6 conversion kits avail. Key is to get a solid engine that does not need a rebuild. If you can score one cheap, a number banged around in the NS region is a 20k+ cost for the basic conversion. That guy got a good engine at a steal however. Experts say this is a cheaper option than option 1 above and generally gets a engine with more power and reliability than a race built 3.2. 310hp is doable in this setup. Combine that with weight loss and it is possible to get modern 911 turbo crushing power to weight ratios in the right (skilled) hands assuming the suspension/tires are up to snuff.

Alternative methods:
- loose weight. can be the cheapest option, and stripping out things like the interior is free DIY but will devalue your car fast if you are not careful. A well done backdate with fiberglass bumpers and spoiler can make a huge difference in weight, and might add value to a select market. 2400lbs is doable and worth the weight in gold for power to weight gains.
- tires: in my mind the best bang for buck upgrade in overall performance (lap times). More cornering speed=more straight away speed. But to take advantage of this you need...
- driver: The most valuable part of any car to upgrade as the upgrade carries over to every car you buy. I passed a modern Stingray in a 40 year old 135hp car because I had more upgrades between my ears than the vette driver (and R888 tires helped too).
- new car: for 13k I got a mazda speed 3 for my wife used. 911 3.6 conversions can go for 30K+ for a finished car. Cheaper than doing it yourself after you factor in the price of the car. Remember, cheaper to buy if someone else flips the bill for the work.

buy and read the "911 performance handbook." You can order it on this site. great book that covers all of the above.

My rules of cheap power as related to cost:
(Cheapest) buy a different faster car / buy a car like yours that someone made fast / make your slow car faster (most expensive)

Hey Zack: Although not very common, both Bruce Anderson in his Performance Handbook and our host, in How to Rebuild and Modify 911 engines talk about supercharging. Not going to get any love on this forum, but the fact that these two guys talk about it - albeit a few years ago - may be worth a look if you are interested in 0-60.
Not saying I would do it to my car, and I am sure it is time to put on a flame retardant suit, but just putting it out there.

Are you from Halifax NS or UK?

Buy a 944 track car with a crate motor. $5k.

It's beyond me as to why people are still replying to your post. We try to help each other here not bash them
Ernie

My brother put some coin in rebuilding his 3.2. New pistons, cams, headers, electromotive ignition, PMO carbs and a few things I'm probably missing. It's setup for low end torque. Is it a supercar? No. But after driving it I know it will rip up my stock 3.2. The low end power is great. The throttle response is great.

I think the biggest thing the stock 3.2 is missing is power in the lower RPM range. I think I could almost hang with my brother if we both started out in 2nd at about 4000 rpm. I know what you're saying and what you're wanting but the reality is you're trying to make a car built for curves fast in the straights and that's going to take some money no matter how you go about it. I was at a car show talking with some friends who said "You can join our car club if you transplant a small block v8 in the car" I told them I'll keep my engine and tear you up if I get to choose the track. They all knew what I was talking about.

That's a big +1.

Nice write-up BTW. Thank you.

After a day in the sunshine with the leaves turning all the fall colors, it occurs to me that the Carrera 3.2 is at its best when you are just roaring around listening to the sounds and soaking in the smells and colors. It's not a drag racer or an all out track star, although cubic money can be thrown at the problem, if you call it a problem.

For myself, a Steve Wong chip, an M&K premuffler, and M&K one-in-one-out, and a couple of other small items, have kept the upgrade costs cheap, but made the driving more pleasureable. Will I lose a drag race? Sure.

But the other car won't be a 28 year old classic with 155k miles, that fires up, wrestles back when driven, and makes all the great sounds. There's something to be said for well enough alone, and tools for the job.

On the other hand, it's your toy, and you can make it into whatever you want it to be. When it comes time for a rebuild, I might do a 3.4 conversion, if it wouldn't add much to the cost of the rebuild process.

+1 for the M&K premuffler and 1/1 muffler + Steve Wong chip, that's exactly what I have and it's a great combo; very noticeable power and driveability gain at not much (relative) cost.

well put, zimmer266. I put about $1000 in similar upgrades and really enjoy it the feel and sound. I don't know if I gained much HP, but it definitely moved it further down the RPM range so I feel it sooner. I discovered quickly, if I want to race, available HP isn't the limiting factor.

I will work on learning to drive it and shedding weight (me more than the car), tinker with suspension, wheels, transmission. Then, if I feel the car is my limiting factor, I'll call Protomotive and get the twin turbo. I figure I've got plenty of learning to do while I save up the $40,000.

In theory just the parts. But to get full potential the experts say you need to go twin plug for the 3.4 or 3.5.

If it were me I would just get euro pistons. good for ~15hp.

edit. I take that back, that would be about 3500$ for 15hp. The 3.4 is about 2k more on top of that.

I completely agree. The OP has a serious attitude that is very uncommon amongst the Pelican community. He accuses guys ability to read and calls them lame. Real nice for a guy looking for some expert advice.

no problem. i have nothing to add.

oh wait, yes i do - i hope you like it in your next forum.

if you're looking for info - and there's a ton here - don't be a d-bag in the process.

good day. door -> a$$.

I had a ride once in a track prepped 3.6. It had head work, race exhaust, EXTREMELY well set up, and was by far and away the most exhilarating experience on 4 wheels I've ever had. It had a re-worked Motronic (chipped, etc), so it did not have any of the throttle lag that a turbo will have. I don't know how that would compare in cost to a turbo swap, but it certainly would be reliable and a bucket of fun. If your 3.2 is sound using it as a platform would be predictable if nothing else.
I don't feel that straight line performance is what these cars are really about. Like the racers say "races are won in the turns, not on the straights", so maybe the porsche platform is not the best choice if you're looking for a 1/4 miler.

I sincerely thank those who offered constructive remarks and suggestions.

To those who have issues with the attitude. Please read the nonsense that have been thrown in return to my simple question, right from the beginning and see at me, and see why my attitude changed (e.g., go buy a Mada 3, buy a Porsche 944 . . .; good day. door -> a$$.). For sure, I am not going to degrade myself to the level of those who come up with such wasteful nonsense. If you do not extend respect to the poster, respect the others and do not waste time and space by nonsense. I have respected, do respect and will respect many experts and their opinion in this forum, regardless of the nonsense that I have seen on this thread. That said, however, I do not have time to see irrelevant comments. Obviously, some have too much time to waste to right irrelevant nonsense.

Again, many thanks to those who provided constructive suggestions - much appreciated.
. . . to those who WILL come back with further nonsense - Please do not waste other people's time.
Cheers,
The car-nut (with an attitude?!!!)

You talk about wasting people's time?

99.9% of anything Porsche 3.2 has been answered on these pages, should someone take the time and have the patience to look, read and then look and read some more.

If you'd done that, you'd have realized that most people are either not willing to do what you're asking due to the value of their cars, or are completely fine with the performance that they've upgraded to, you know the "meager" 10 to 25 HP that they've added.

So you come in, insult the consensus of the overwhelming majority, don't research, completely overlook genuine feedback because it doesn't answer your pie in the sky wish... and then ask the population to help you save money on the OBVIOUS ANSWER?

If it's such a simple question, why even ask it? Go Enjoy your project very much, look forward to all the help you'll get when you come back asking other obviously simple questions.

Car-nut is a very important guy. Don't waste his time, just be sure to give him quick free expert advice!

Worst attitude on Pelican seen to date.

I advise all Pelicans to stop giving free advice to an obvious self centered A-Hole.

prirotizing HP gain methods based on cost

You bought the wrong car...

As overheard at the Sebring 48 hours a few years ago when one of the drivers was complaining about the high cost of racing a Porsche competitively - his buddy replied - what part of "racing" or "Porsche" did you think was going to be reasonable?

HP gains based on cost for the 3.2 go up in cubic dollars.

Best bang for the buck (which has been discussed ad nauseum here) is the euro premuffler and sport muffler combined with a Steve Wong chip will net you 15-20 ponies

After that the costs go up exponentially - and that's if you get it right.

Get it wrong and it's easy to put your purchase price back into the car... (I know a few people that have turbo'd a 3.2 and grenaded it too)

(if it's been done, there's a good chance it's been documented here - the search button is your friend) Juan Ruiz had some nice HP out of a 3.2 a few years ago...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1413893838.jpg

Instead of performance gains for the car - I'd really recommend you sign up for some autocrosses and maybe even a DE. 9 times out of 10 - the limiting factor is not the car, but the nut behind the wheel.

Usually after a couple of sessions at Sebring - with new folks and their cars, even old cars like mine - usually walk away in amazement that they car is really capable of - in the right environment...

Here's Juan's car - Excuse the language -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfAmeWDuX1o