Quick question re: front wheel alignment.

[car-nut]

Deal Porsche 911 experts.

The factory manual says "loosen the bolts to set camber and caster".

However, it does not tell you whether one needs to loosen all bolts, if one wants to only set the camber; or, only caster. Anyone knows which bolts should be loosened for camber adjustments?

Thank you for your time.

[douglas bray]

They all have to be loosened to get the plate to move at all. Then, once they are loose, you have to fight the tar. It ain't fun.

I'd really wonder why you are messing with them at all.

[car-nut]

Thanks for the quick reply. No tar on mine!
Cheers,
The car-nut.

[douglas bray]

Really? No tar? That's gotta suck in the rain. The tar is there for a reason.

[car-nut]

My apologies for the wrong info! Last night, I realized that there was tar around the plates (black on black- hard to see!).

I chipped of the tar off, yet, after loosening the bolts, I could not reach to the 0 deg. camber (if was 1.5 deg off). I am 0.3 deg. off now. In order to get the 1.2 deg., I had to jump on the bumper several times, and roll the car back and forth!

FYI, I also have the brace, which I removed it completely, since the car had 1.5 deg. positive camber.

What am I missing? Any tricks to get that 0.3 deg. corrected?

Thanks you in advance!
Cheers,
The car-nut

[Discseven]

Originally Posted by douglas bray

Really? No tar? That's gotta suck in the rain. The tar is there for a reason.

Doug... what reason?

[McLaren-TAG]

Wasn't your quick answer quickly given car-nut?

Maybe you should research your other question now... you wouldn't want to get any wise crack answers hat might upset you.

[Driven97]

Can you post a photo of how your camber plates currently are?

There's not a ton of adjustment in the factory bits. Once the upper mount is jammed against the inside part of the hole in the body, that's all you're going to get. Lowering the car will give you more static negative camber since there's a bit of camber gain in compression on a front strut suspension.

There's alternate top mounts that are a bit smaller diameter that let you get a little more negative camber and a bit more caster, too. I personally bought the cheap eBay ones, and had to replace the spherical bearings in them with better pieces almost immediately, so buyer beware.

Another option is offset lower balljoints that Elephant racing produces. Instead of adjusting camber at the top, it adjusts it at the bottom. You can orient them any way you please when you install them, so you can add or subtract camber or caster with them. They're offset very little so they don't give you much, but it's something.

A third option for more camber is to have your strut housings modified. Companies like Elephant and Rebel can take your housings, cut them apart, and reweld them with negative camber added. They can also raise your spindles at the same time which will lower your car without changing the geometry.

[car-nut]

Thank you (Driven97) for the detailed answer.
Regards,
The car-nut.

[car-nut]

. . . . need further clarifications PLZ!

Fact: The factory book specifies exact weights to be located in car while conducting wheel alignment; however, there is no mention of any weight for car's height adjustment.

Question: When adjusting teh height, do we need to put any weight in teh cra (say, driver's weight)?

Thanks in advance.
The car-nut

[tobluforu]

Any good alignment shop will weight the drivers seat equal to the drivers weights, so yes do that before you drop it and align.

[Driven97]

You're getting a bit into splitting hairs at that point, but yes, it's best practice to align and corner balance a car in the exact configuration that it will be used in.

Usually road trip with your wife / husband? Put weight in both seats, and maybe some luggage weight.
Setting it up for competition? Remove the spare and tools, and add just the driver's weight.

Don't forget that gasoline weighs ~6lb/gallon. A full tank of fuel is ~126lb on the front of the car.

[scarceller]

If you lowered the ride height via the adjuster bolt on the A-Arm then on many cars you will never be able to hit 0deg camber. The only way to properly lower ride height is to move the spindle up on the strut. Trying to lower the ride height via the adjuster bolt is not the best way to do it because as you lower the height via the bolt you kick out the bottom of the tire. Look at the geometry of the A-Arm and you'll see why.

So are you trying to adjust camber after you lowered the ride height via the bolt?

[Driven97]

Actually, that's a good point - are you looking for more negative (tops in) or positive (tops out) camber?

My autocross brain is wired to always want more negative so I jump to conclusions (I'd love more negative on my car, as under full load I'm not at an ideal contact patch.)

[scarceller]

He needs to let us know if he lowered the ride height via the adjustment bolt and if so how much?

Dropping 1/2" ride height on some chassis will never let you get back to 0deg chamber, so forget about positive chamber for some cars.

I'm not sure why some chassis have more adjustment than others? I've seen some that can be lowered and still hit 0deg but others you can't get much more than -1deg.

[car-nut]

Dear friends:
When I purchased the car, although the profile looked beautifully low, in addition to the horrible bump-steer, one could hardly turn the steering wheel. In other words, the PO had completely massacred the suspension; but the car was ion awesome condition otherwise (wide-body Carrera – see my Garage).
I immediately installed a bump-steer kit (unfortunately, I only focused on the front suspension only) - it helped, but not to a great extent. I could still exercise my biceps turning the steering wheel!
I then decided to remove the kit, raise the car (indecently, he had done it via the two bolts), so that it would be s back to the “factory spcs”. It really helped, but again, not even close to the outstanding handling and ease of moving the steering wheel that I get on my 80 SC.
I then took it to the alignment shop. After doing their laser bit, they told me that the rid height is so erratic and off that they could not do much (they were kind enough to give me all the laser reading, without charging me a cent). I then noticed the disaster in the rear wheel (one side being slightly over 1” lower than the other side. I have corrected the back end, and now working on the front end.
So, now you know the full-story. . . . .and yes, when I attempt to fix something, I like to do it right (as it is referred to by one of our friends as “splitting the hair”.

Thank you all for your time.
Zack (the very car-nut),

PS. The numbers are +ve (hence, +ve camber. I am now only 0.3 deg off; but I want to redo it, since I adjusted the ride height without weight, and did the alignment with nearly 300 lbs of weight (and full tank!))

[scarceller]

If the ride height is set to factory spec you should be able to achieve 0deg chamber but these cars like a little negative chamber. Here's my specs

Front :
Toe + 15’ ± 5’
Camber 0º ± 10’
Caster 6º 5’± 15’
Ride Height 108mm or 25.5" to fender lip

Rear
Toe +10’ ± 10’
Camber -1 ± 10’
Torsion plate:US 40º
Euro 35º
Ride Height 25" to fender lip

[car-nut]

scarceller
These are exactly the same numbers I have in my factory manual ! Where is your -ve camber?
BTW, are the front and rear heights in you car identical? What is you tire size?
Cheers!

[douglas bray]

The tar is there to stop rain water from flowing from the wheel well to the frunk. Sorry if that offends.

[scarceller]

Originally Posted by car-nut

scarceller
These are exactly the same numbers I have in my factory manual ! Where is your -ve camber?
BTW, are the front and rear heights in you car identical? What is you tire size?
Cheers!

I posted those specs as they run well in a lot of cars. I run 1 deg negative chamber in the front with slight toe in.

My fender heights are: 25.5" rear 25.0" front and it looks great but my car is a 84 Factory WideBody car (M491 option). But those fender lip heights look real nice on these cars. Can't go much lower in the front as I really start to loose positive chamber if I lower any further.