and you guys thought I needed help last time...HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

I just now figured out that the auto hobby shop here on base has internet access!!!
Wish I had known about this a year ago.

Ok, here's the scoop...I need help very badly folks.
I got everything finished up and mounted this morning.

I removed the fuel pump relay and coil wire to just spin the motor to get oil pressure in the engine. Motor turns over fine. Then I reinstalled the relay to get fuel into the injectors, -I can hear it running and still no problems...there was also good spark comming out of the coil.
Then i plugged the coil back in to see what happens.
Nothing. It just cranks and cranks.
I know I have spark and I know that fuel is "not" getting to the injectors!
I know that the fuel pump is running because this morning I drained the gas tank, filled it with new gas (old stuff was definately bad) and then ran the pump to flush out the bad gas in the lines. I didn't have a problem then. So I know the pump is working. The tank is half full. I installed a new fuel filter and accumulator...no leaks. Everything looks fine but there is no fuel getting to the injectors. I pulled a couple injectors and turned over the engine...nothing. There is also fuel getting to the center fuel line on the distributor housing. (I removed it and gas went everywhere)
So I think I might have a problem with the fuel distributor...
Maybe the control plunger is "stuck" from sitting so long????

Anyone???
Please help!
I'm running out of time here!!!!!!!!!

CIS gods where are YOU!!!!!!!!!???

Please!

I have never had to deal with the fuel distributor on a 911, but I did on my 1978 Saab...which is also CIS. I had a problem where it had been clogged by dirt dobbers. They managed to get into the fuel in and out holes and made nests in it. Basically, disconnect all of the fuel lines from the fuel distributor, unhook it from everything else, and take it out. Then there should be a couple of screws or bolts holding it together.

Clean it up really nicely(I mean microscopically clean!) and reinstall it.

Hopefully this is your problem, Lee.

Paul

Ok, I've narrowed it down a bit farther.

I loosened the fuel distributor line to #1 injector at the distributor housing. And fuel (definately under pressure) came spirting out!

So, this tells me that fuel is definately getting to at least one injector line yet no fuel is squirting out of that injector. I even had someone turn the engine over while I lifted the throttle plate and still nothing!

These are brand new, never used before injectors! Whats going on here????!!! Help!!!!

Ok, another development.

I loosened a fuel injector fitting (from fuel line to the injector) and guess what...fuel also came squirting out. So, now I think I may have a fuel pressure problem.

Don't CIS injectors require a certain amount of fuel pressure to open the injector and let it spray. If that is the case than I am now fairly certain that I am not getting enough fuel pressure to open the injectors.
Now I am stumped. What can cause me to not get enough fuel pressure?????

AKKK!!! Help!!!!!

turn on the key and lift the sensor plate arm by hand until you hear the injectors squirt. (remove air filter to access it). kind of a whirring sound. don't do it too long or you can hydraulically lock the engine. this should allow starting. if you didn't mess with the CO adjusting screw, it should run as before.

Lee, this is purely a wild-assed guess, but if the injectors require a minimum amount of pressure, and the fuel pump provides the pressure (??), could it be a bad battery?
Chuck

John, I did just that (described in my Bentley manual and here's the deal:
I am not getting the injectors to open. I pulled one out and watched it while the engine cranked. Nothing...I also gently lifted up on the sensor plate arm and still nothing. No fuel out of the injectors.

From what I have read, this seems to be a fuel pressure problem. The symptoms for low fuel pressure include external fuel leaks.( I see none)
Restricted/kinked fuel supply ( I see no kinks)
Clogged fuel filter ( it's brand new and facing the right way)
Clogged fuel pickup in tank. (I don't think so because it was flowing fine this morning)
Leaking or incorrectly adjusted pressure regulator. (I didn't mess with that adjustment)

Why am i not getting enough fuel pressure to open the damn injectors??? Anyone ever had this happen before?

Does the fuel pump need to be bled? Can there be air in the lines or something?????

Leland,

If you are getting fuel to the injector lines, it's possible that you may not have enough pressure. Did you pull all injectors out to see if any were getting fuel?

You really need to have a fuel injection test kit to check pressures on the system. That is the only sure way of checking where the problem is.

Air lock may cause the problem, but I don't think so. If the pressure from the fuel pump is high enough, then any air would be blown through the injectors. If I remember correctly, the pressure on the fuel pump is somewhere around 80-110 psi. If you are getting the proper fuel pressure, then your problem could be your pressure regulator or the bypass on the fuel distributor.

Steve

Lee,
Bill Krause seems to know more than just about anybody about the CIS. Maybe he'll read your post, or drop him a note.

------------------
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
The Blue Bomber's Website
"If it ain't broke...we'll help you fix it 'til it is!"

Thanks Stormcrow, I did pull the injectors to see if they were getting anything...all day today -nothing.
Here is the latest- and I must say...it is now a bit more confusing.
I had my friend out looking at it and I was describing to him what it was doing (ie. no fuel to the injectors) then I hopped in the car to crank it over a few times. (I should add that on my car the little switch that keeps the fuel pump from running until it starts cranking has been disconnected. My mechanic said it wasn't working so he just unplugged it. So on my car when the key is turned to the "on" postition, the fuel pump starts running. It has never been a problem in the past.)

So, as I am sitting in the car with the key on and fuel pump running, I was talking to Justin and after about 6 or 7 seconds I cranked it over to show him that it wasn't firing.
And "Bab bloop ba bloom- stumble stumble stumble"
it actually tried to fire!!!!!!
I was in shock...I couldn't figure out why it tried to start just then and hadn't all day. We started prodding around and this is what we found:
If I let the fuel pump run for a few seconds then try to crank it, it will stumble for just a few seconds and die. I removed a couple injectors to see which one was "sorta working" and I found that for some odd reason the #1 cylinder injector is spewing gas when the fuel pump is turned on. But when it starts cranking, it stops. Now tell me that ain't wierd. So now on top of the problem of the injectors not getting any fuel, I apparently have one injector that starts spewing (not atomizing) a bit of fuel when the pump starts running. So far that one cylinder is the only one that is doing it. Hell, as frustrating as this all is, I am now happy as hell that I got SOME sign of life from it!!

Well, I haven't the slightest clue what to do now. I'm not sure if I might have a faulty (brand new) pressure accumulator, or something wrong with my fuel lines or pump, or if the problem is something else.
I know these posts are long and confusing.

I cannot express how much I appreciate the guys who take the time to read through my rambleings and try to help.

Warren, JW...Storm?? Any suggestions???
Should I buy one of those special and I'm sure, expensive, fuel pressure tester kits?

Lee....i dont know if this is pertinent to the 911...but it worked for my 914. I couldnt afford to wait to get a Fuel Injection tester from my auto parts store (I live in Kansas...everything must be "ordered") my mechanic suggested that I get an oil pressure guage...like would be mounted on the dash. On The fitting that would accept the hose I put a piece of fuel line (about 2 feet) with a hose clamp...and attached the other end of it to the cold start valve nipple on my fuel rail. I could test the fuel pressure and the pressure regulator. At least it might rule out some fuel pressure problems and it cost only about $6. I still use it to make sure my regulator is calibrated about every other tune up. I would imagine that there is someplace to tap into the fuel system like this (?) It sure is a love/hate relationship with these cars huh! Brian

Leland

You can get a CIS tester from JC Whitney for about $50, or I can loan you mine. You need to verify system and control pressure before you get much farther into this.

Say the word, and I can send my tester to you, (if I can find all the pieces).

BTW this quote
"Bill Krause seems to know more than just about anybody about the CIS"

had me laughing my ass off.

------------------
Bill Krause
'79 911SC Euro
MY PELICAN GALLERY

Still sounds like air in the system. Can you pull all 6 injectors up, place a folded shop towel under each, turn on key and lift sensor plate until you get fuel coming through all six. From you last post, it sounds like you are almost there.

------------------
Robert Stoll
83 SC
83 944

Bill,
You're too modest. Your CIS tips have helped me a lot. Better than Bentley as a matter of fact. Just giving credit where it's due!

------------------
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
The Blue Bomber's Website
"If it ain't broke...we'll help you fix it 'til it is!"

rstoll sounds like he's one to something. It may take a while to get all the air out of the system.

Also, on the subject of your fuel pump running with the key in the ON position. In addition to the safety issue, there is another downside to this. If the fuel pump is running, that means that there is also voltage present at the WUR and the AAR. If you leave the pump on for very much time before cranking the engine, then the WUR may have heated up enough that it is no longer enriching the mixture enough to provide a good cold start.

Have you checked to see if you're getting any spray out of the cold start injector? Even if the rest of the CIS is screwed, you should at least get an intial start of the engine if the cold start injector and thermotime switch is working.

Thanks Doug, I'm glad that I've helped. I feel like a big sink for information, not a source.

Well, rstoll was right on the money.

We went at it again and for some reason every time we cranked it it seemed to stumble a bit longer then all of a sudden, it fired up.
It ran ok,...a little rough for a few minutes then seemed to smooth out a bit.
I had Justin keep his foot on the accelerator and gently ease it back and forth between idle and 3000 rpm for exactly 20 minutes while I inspected and listened for problems.
I wish I could say that I found nothing wrong but I did. A very big problem.


I instantly started looking for fuel and oil leaks anywhere on the motor. There is just a bead of a drop coming from the hard oil line to the soft oil line under the motor. Not a big deal...a bit of torquing should stop that.
But here is the nightmare.
I was absolutely heartbroken to see oil dripping from undernieth the pulley. maybe 2 drips a second. Definately not a minor leak. I kept my eye on it while we let it run for 20 minutes. After we shut her off, I started inspecting this leak.
I am sad to say that it is coming from the very top of the nose bearing where the two crank halves meet. It is a pressure leak and stops when shut down. At firt I was hoping that it might just be the pully seal which wouldn't be that hard to replace. But no, it is definately the o-ring around the nose bearing. What a nightmare.
As soon as the engine fires up you can clearly see a bit of oil spurt out of the seam where the nose bearing meets the case halves. It then runs down both sides of the bearing and drips undernieth. I know the consequences of this. There is no way to repair it with out doing what is essentially another rebuild. Total teardown. I'm not mad, -dissapointed but not mad. With all that has happened this week it kind of puts things into perspective.
I don't know what to do now though. I shudder at the thought of removing the entire engine again just to tackle this sucker. And I cannot imagine what I could have possibly done wrong. It was very simple. I lubed the o-ring with Dow Corning 111, made absolutely sure that the nose bearing sat into the alignment pin, and I definately made sure that the loctite got into all recesses. And the case was properly and evenly torqued.
What could I have done wrong?

Other than that everything else seemed to be great...no smoke, no clatter (the chains seemed a bit noisy but that is expected) and it ran just a little bumpy but I have not used a timing light or had the mixture adjusted.


Well, now my baby will sit until I can decide what to do.

I want to thank everyone who has helped me get to this point for over a year now. It would be pointless to just name a few because virtually everybody on this list has contributed at one time or another.

I love you man http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif,

Leland

http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/smi10.gif

Damn, Leland, that is a bummer.

Hang in there!

I had my fingers crossed for you, but leaks seem to be one of those things that unfortunately seem to happen to first timers. There are so many damn places for a 911 engine to leak, and so many places where the exact type and amount, and method of application, are critical. Little things that are hard to describe or pick up in a book.

Is there ANY way you can seal it up without taking it all apart again?!?

http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif yes, there is a glimmer of hope.

It's not a very good plan with only a slight chance of doing any good...

I guess I could take a bit of some sort of "filler" material, and pack it into the joint that is leaking.

I haven't the slightest clue what would work though. Epoxy would vibrate loose. Loctite 574 wouldn't have a chance to harden...
Maybe some of that "Quicksteel" stuff you buy in a tube.
It is not a high pressure quirt...just a dribble. and it seems to be located right at the seam of the case halves and the nose bearing.


I did take it fir a short trip around base. I love it! What a car. Can you imagine what a great feeling that is??!!! She's running pretty good. Just a bit of timing and fix the slight exhaust leak (at collector to cat.) and she'd be rearin' to go! In fact, while I was driving, it was very easy to forget that there was a leak back there. Too bad. http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/frown.gif

Well, give me your imputs guys and I'll decide what route to take.

Leland

Leland:

Can't help on the leak, but,

Your car starts, runs and drives - you are so my hero!!! I hope that (leak aside) you have a big feeling of accomplishment right now, and that anyone else wondering if they can do it, no thinks they can.

I guess I even sort of think I maybe could...

Cam

I'll tell you what I'm a gonna do.
I'm going to run around back, pull the car into the bay, clean up the area and take a couple digital pics of the leak for you guys.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif

I know this could be a huge problem...but I am just too damn happy to have it back together and running right now!!!!!!!!!!!


Be back in a sec.

Sorry to hear about the leak Leland. Is there any possibility a few heat cycles might help it seal up??

------------------
Robert Stoll
83 SC
83 944

Heat cycle it! Stoll's on to it: some motors have a remarkable self healing ability- at least it's free and easy.
Next development will be self regenerating pistons and cylinders....or whale tails that shed and regrow in the face of potential danger http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif

A man in Iowa with a broken tractor saved $10,000 . . .

Wow. Congratulations Leland! I think I'll go celebrate. This makes me feel good. You must be happy.

On the leak, maybe you can fix it somehow, though I don't know how. Maybe it will seat itself and quit dribbling. Maybe you'll have a choice between a leak and a teardown. But here's the deal: There's nothing easier than tearing down a motor that was just built. Well, okay there's easier things. But the cost is somewhat minimal and there are no difficult fasteners. Still, it would take some time.

I say drive it. I always say that. I'm saying it again. Enjoy, Leland. Nice job!

When you were considering this project, I told you that if you did it, air would smell sweeter and beer would taste better. Was I right?

------------------
'83 SC

You can get a seal conditioner from a hydraulic shop and inject some through the leak with a syringe this will swell the seal and make it tighter. I use a cup at every oil change just to keep my engine seals flexable, but, then again I like a clean garage floor.

Hope this helps
Tim in sac

I too would like to cast a vote for running the car for a while, to see what happens to the leak.

Part of my job is fixing leaky plumbing in apartment buildings. Countless times, I have seen minor leaks seal themselves with sediment present in the pipes. True, an oil leak is a different beast than a water leak. But I would give your bearing and seal time to "bed in" before going for another teardown.

For now, if it were me I would focus on the glorious sound of the new engine purring away, while keeping an eye on oil level and pressure.

Roger Shadel
78 911SC

Jim, you were damn right!


I am very proud of myself for this one.
Even though she leaks. http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/eek.gif I have doubts of it "healing itself" but who knows. I just hate the whole -sitting at a red light knowing the people are behind you saying "that car is leaking oil!"

Atleast it isn't a rotating seal...like a main seal...you can't just goober that up!

I tried to make a photo of the leak... but once again I can't upload it.
I'll post a link...

It shouldn't be too long before John Walker chimes in here. He might have an (easy) answer to your problem, Lee. Good luck!

------------------
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
The Blue Bomber's Website
"If it ain't broke...we'll help you fix it 'til it is!"

See if this link works...or Jack the PC wizard can post it here. I know it's not that clear, but it is real hard to get a camera in there!
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=951612&a=6970602&p=54212416&Sequence=0&res= high

I run a little bit of marvelous mystry oil through my 87 vw golfs CIS system to lubricate the pump, distributor, and injectors. I havent had any problems with it. Any ideas folks?

CIS systems are precisly machined and finiky.
They shouldn't be adjusted unless absolutely neccessary.
A tech told me for basic CO adjustment-to get running(not recomennded without a gas analyser)is to:
1. Jump the fuel pump relay and turn key on so its running all the time.
2. Pull all injectors out and put in tall glass jar.
3. Take off rubber "hood" from fuel distributor and check air plate-it should be centered and even with top of funnel. Slight springy resistance when pushed.
4. Lift plate with a magnet- should be no resistance(thatindicates problem with center control plunger) . Fuel should begin to spray immediately and evenly with a nice cone shape.
5. Reinstall injectors with new seals(prevent vacuum leaks). Lubrcate with white lithium grease first or WD40 (dont know?).
6. Check cold start valve-should spray for short time and stop

Just some ideas, gota go-AOL is kicking me off every five minutes

Huh?

Hey, it's running. That's awesome. I'm here to help:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate...ds/OilLeak.jpg

------------------
Jack Olsen
My Rennlist page • My Pelican Gallery page • My Porsche Owners Gallery page

Leland, I'm soooo happy she's running!

Sorry to hear about the leak. But when I did my carrera tensioner upgrade, they leaked slightly for the first couple times I ran it( where the oil lines go into the covers) but then they quit. I'm praying this happens for you!

------------------
Matt Chamblin
78 911 SC

" A man in Iowa with a broken tractor saved $10,000 . . . "

Here's the stuff!

http://www.jbweld.co.uk/

Just think, if it works you'll be on Paul Harvey News .... a man with a Porsche 911SC saved big $$$ .... http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/wink.gif

Seriously, I don't mean to make light of the situation Leland. Good luck!

------------------
1971 911T - 2.5L Big Bore

Leland, I think you may have been too liberal in your application of silicone grease to the o-ring. That may have compromised the integrity of the case sealer. It's near impossible to know for sure though. If you go the external goo route, I'd suggest using Toyota-Black silicone sealant. That stuff is just amazing. Clean off the area with brake clean, let it dry, then goop it up.

But let's cross our fingers and hope it fixes itsself.

------------------
Tyson Schmidt
72 911 Cabriolet
92 C-2 Cabriolet

Congradulations Leland!

For the nose area case leak, the first step that you need to take is the re-tightning of the case-halve bolt/nuts about the nose area.

If you do decide to dis-assemble the engine, in order fix the oil leak, be aware that you may be able to dis-assemble the cam towers, cams, rocker assy, heads, and headers as complete units, since they have been already rebuilt and adjusted properly. I am able to do this on my earlier engines, and this saves a tremendous amount of time, I am not sure about your later model engine, someone else may be able to confirm this. Only difficult part is getting the forwad most exhaust head barrel nut off since the access port is smaller than the barrel nut itself, you can undo the nut but have to leave it in the cam housing.

Now your next project can be an engine test stand that will allow you to test the engine at the minimal assembly point to determine correct operation and no leaks, before going thru the entire engine reinstallation process to only find out something is wrong and that you have to perform a re-pull. Even this is no gaurantee, as I have a test stand that allows me set a rebuild to the rear of my engine compartment, and using a few extended cable harnesses and hoses perform a test run using the components located in the car. Problem is I get too excited and overconfident about wanting to get the engine back in the car and having the wheels rolling down the road, that I many times forgoe the test procedure, and end up paying for it after re-installation.

Well, good luck and enjoy.

Don

Lee,

I am proud of you, drip or no drip! Two drops a minute is not serious, and I think the heat cycling might just be the trick! Wait a week before deciding if more drastic action is needed!

------------------
Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa
1992 Dodge Dakota 5.2 4X4 parts hauler

"Two drips a second" is unfortunately what was written by Leland.
I hope it does improve on it's own, but none the less you should be proud of yourself for this rebuild- your mechanical skills must be way above average to accomplish this under the circumstances. Since motor doesn't have strange noise you must have done several things right!
I'm fairly new to this BB and very impressed with the DIY skills of members and helpfulness of pro's and experts here.

Well done on your rebuild!!
You might be able to stop the leak by removing the pulley, cleaning everything with brake cleaner and then MEK and then using some Dow-Corning 730 or similar sealer.
Let it set and then check for leaks.

Well, I have a hair brained idea.

First let me explain what is puzzling me about this leak.

I know there is a bit of oil at the bottom of the crankcase. And I know that when running, there is an incredible amount of turbulance inside the case.
I also know that it is the job of the crankcase breather to "relieve" or "equalize"? this pressure.

I know that oil gets thrown all over the inside of the case but on top of the pilot bearing is definatly NOT under the oil line.
So, I ask myself WHY is it leaking almost as if there is some amount of pressure that is, in effect, "pushing" a steady stream of oil through what otherwise would not be an area that oil could leak from. (not being "underwater" anyway)
Well, the 1 meter length of breather hose I got is a bit too long and it is actually "kinked" or flattened at one of its bends.

Here is my hair brained idea.

Is it in any way possible that because the crankcase breather is in effect, pinched, that there may be more positive pressure inside the case and possibly forcing the displaced oil next to the nose bearing seal through the slight gap?????


I told you all it was hair brained... so what do you all think?

[This message has been edited by Leland Pate (edited 09-17-2001).]