Estimate for PPI findings

[Hoppe]

I just had a ppi on an 85 Targa. I had to do it at a non-porsche shop. Car has 128k on it. Quality respray and very nice interior. Asked for $31k, I negotiaed to $27k based on perceived condition prior to ppi. Attached are the findings. Can you experts help me with the valuation? How much should this impact the price if any?

Thanks.

Glenn

[darrin]

the PPI doesn't reference a leak down test on the engine -- 84-89 carreras have a relatively common issue with premature valve guide wear, which causes excessive oil consumption and requires the "top end" of the engine to be rebuilt -- at a cost of several thousand dollars. Also not seeing anything about transmission or clutch condition. the synchros on the 915 transmission can get balky/grindy over time, requiring a transmission rebuild.

Can the PO supply any maintenance records that could clarify whether the top end, clutch and/or transmission have been addressed/rebuilt?

The issues identified above don't seem too bad -- and, since it's by a non-porsche shop, the comments re the front cooler could well be referencing the front ac condenser, which is centered just behind the front bumper (the front oil cooler is just ahead of the right front wheel)

[shadowjack1]

I would like to see, compression test, leak down results. Just for starters.

[Hoppe]

Compression test was good and clutch replaced about 10 years ago. Car shifts and drives well. Oil consumption is minimal.

[darrin]

since you're looking for valuation info and how these issues would effect valuation -- $27k only seems reasonable for a car with this mileage/underlying condition that requires no additional work to driven/enjoyed. Could the PPI mechanic estimate how much it would take to fix all of the thoughts? (my WAG, around $5k) -- I'd explain the scope of issues identified during the PPI and reduce offer accordingly. Sounds like a nice car, if you're mechanically inclined/interested, the majority of the issues identified should be relatively straightforward for you to address yourself by searching the forum.

[Hoppe]

More mechanically inclined as I get older. Following this forum over the last few months encouraged me.

[gliding_serpent]

Make sure they have a look at the head studs to make sure none are missing (top end rebuild). While in there, have them look at the cam lobes for premature wear. I had good leakdown and compression but got burned by a headstud and warn cams.

[steely]

I've lost complete track of the current car valuations, but I agree with darrin on the WAG and negotiating it as a deduction to the asking price.
Apart from the missing leak down numbers, the report seemed good. more is always better, but he covered stuff that missed in my PPI.
Did they mention the condition of the vacuum and fuel lines. If the brakes are acting up this much (and judging from the lack of regular maintenance), there may be a new master & slave cylinder in its future.

Good luck - if you do take her on, you can do it yourself. I've limited experience, but the forum has helped, and I always take her in for an annual inspection and to double check my work.

[Hoppe]

Here is the car. Original asking price was $31k. The seller was going of info provided by a pca member for a car in very good condition. I negotiated down to $27k based on the description, conversations and mileage. Everything on the car works and the interior is in very good condition, no dash cracks or leather splits.

Could it be that $27k is still a fair price or should it come down?

[Jdub]

Sure, I've seen this - it was in the Seattle CList anyways. If the car is located in that city you would not do badly to have had John Walker look it over.

But what do the past records say? What work has been performed on the car?

[wrxnofx]

Not sure if I agree this car is a Euro model. While the amber taillights are missing (could have been replaced with the red US lenses), there are also no side marker lights in the fenders. Plus, wouldn't a Euro model have H4s? All models have German stickers in the engine bay and German instruments (druck press). Seller doesn't know much about these cars.

[Hoppe]

True statement regarding the seller, which has been a bit of an issue trying to purchase the car. It is not a Euro car.

Looks like the best estimate I have hear is that $5k takes care of the punch list, less if I do it myself. Anyone disagree?

[universeman]

I bought an 82 SC targa last October with 300k miles (but only 5k on the motor/trans which had been completely rebuilt at a $20k cost) for $24.5k.

Mechanically it's been fairly flawless - no oil leaks, no smoke beyond the normal, good shifts, etc. Lots of little things have needed tweaking - signals/lenses, interior lights, etc. Top needed a rebuild ($1.1k via carsinc) and I still have a windshield leak. Seals are needing replacement. Shocks and tires needed replace (I did shocks) and my suspension/align still needs to be done. My PPI would probably have been similar to yours, as I read yours. Just posting this to help you, PM me if you want to know more.

People ring my doorbell and offer to buy it. I had a $30k cash offer the other day.

It's been an amazing car and a fun ride, and if you like these cars I recommend you get one. Best and most fun car I've ever owned. Money isn't everything

[hcoles]

IMO - the brakes/etc. are easy DIY projects - $$ should not be too much.
You are buying an engine and transmission - everything else is mouse nuts.
Leak-down test results would have been nice to see or at least a compression test.
If the guides haven't been replaced you could be getting close to that.
If you need to do the top end in the next couple of years, that opens up the famous slippery slope often discussed here. Doing it yourself is a good DIY project and will help you get to know the car.

[steely]

Originally Posted by Hoppe

Could it be that $27k is still a fair price or should it come down?

So it started at $31? Clearly then I may be out of touch with the going prices, but I think you can use the $27K as the new bench mark and then work down from there using the PPI. I think the seller should come down from there, but keep asking here. Sorry I can't advise since I've been away from the market for so long.

Someone asked if the seller has any records. does he?
Have you priced any other cars and what does you gut tell you?
Is it near you geographically?
FWIW, (author) Pete Zimmerman has a post or tech article here regarding the PPI.
I got my 87 in 2008, I think it was offered at ~$20? and the seller came down to $18 after the PPI. I would say that my car then was in the same condition as 'yours' is now. The PPI wasn't very thorough (caveat emptor), and looking at my records I've put in under $10K since then. I did a little each year and now my spending rate is much lower, but the car responded terrifically to the TLC. It still was high to me and I got scared for 6 months, but now I have zero regrets. I don't think I will get everything back (unless I sold it for what your seller is asking) but I wouldn't lose my shirt either.

If the prices kept pace with my maintenance costs, then the 27 sounds right, but you'll need to work on her. (I guess that's not news).

Like Pete Z and others have said here, establish you price point and then expect to lay out another 5K for surprises, goodies, or mods initially, so prepare for that if you haven't already.

[blucille]

I think you can knock 10-20% off the 30k starting price because it's a targa. I'd say it's a 25k car max. even in today's market

[wrxnofx]

If I bought this car, initially I would do the following (assuming good leak down numbers and good shifting of the 915 gearbox):

1. New tires. Regardless of wear, tires should not exceed 7 or so years in age. When I bought my '87, the tires were 10 years old. I replaced all four from tirerack for like $475, then $85 locally to have the old ones removed and the new ones mounted (plus new valve stems).

2. Do all new rotors, rebuild calipers (or send your in to PMB for rebuild/core switch out), new pads and sensors, new hardware kit, new bearings, and replace brake lines with stainless steel ones. I just bought new pads, hardware kit, sensors, rotors, and bearings for the front for like $350 or $400 if memory serves (lines are already ss and calipers are fine). If you rebuilt your calipers yourself (if they even need it in the short term), I would think you could do everything for $1000. An extra $750 would get you brand newly rebuilt calipers from PMB.

3. New cap, rotor, wires, and plugs. This is simple to do yourself. Even if you got BERU wires, all parts should come in under $400.

4. Valve adjustment. You COULD do this yourself, but if you don't feel comfortable, pay someone the $350-$400 to do it. This would include an oil change.

5. New alternator belt.

6. Drive the piss out of it, and enjoy replacing/fixing/tightening the cosmetic and other niggling things along the way, like the hood shocks, rear bumper support, etc.

[Hoppe]

Thanks for the responses. An opportunity arouse with a fellow Pelican. The car has better records, is maintained by well regarded PCAR shop, is priced similarly and is closer to home. I'm going to try to keep the line of communication open on this car while I investigate the new one.

This thread and a little reading has got me comfortable with what needs to be done with the car and where the price needs to go but I like the possibility of lower overall initial outlay with the new car and the peace of mind of a car with better records/maintenance history.

Thanks for all the help.

[steely]

Cool - good luck man.

[techweenie]

Jumping in late, but loose rear wheel bearings on candidate car #1 is not a small deal. If accurately reported, you could have expected to drop significant money on replacing those...

It's also a failure that rarely happens under 150/200K miles. Which brings up the issue: when someone claims the car is a European market-sourced car but expects you to read the miles as correct, they are likely overlooking the kilometers that were on the car before the speedo swap to US version.