The nest #3

[Tim Walsh]

Couldn't get much done yesterday because of the Carolina game and as usual I got more suprises. This time I drained the oil out and out came at least a quart of water!! The oil itself wasn't too sludgey or anything but when I pulled the sump screen it was coated in sludge. None of the components that I could see from the sump plate hole were rusted at all. (my first worry)

I think I've got a nickname for this old car.. "the nest" A nest for mice, water and who knows what else.

Any idea's on the water in the oil?
edit: and I didn't find any metal particles on either drain plug

[Bill Verburg]

Water in the oil is a natural consequence of the condensation of atmospheric humidity. Whenever the engine is started , warmed and then shut down this process occurs. This is why short trips are so hard on an engine and will necessitate more frequent oil changes. If the car is driven longer distances regularly some or most of the H₂O will evaporate off, depends on the oil temps, ambient temps, dewpoint, duration and load during the trip.

This is the main reason that the oil should be changed immediately prior to long term storage(most of us northerners are all too familiar w/ this activity ) and not driven until spring. It is also why I disagree w/ the folks that say to take the car out occasionally during our all too long winters for a little exercise. The exercise is good for the seals and bearings but the condensation (IMHO) negates the benefits, plus you get corrosive substances all over your immaculate wheels.

[Tim Walsh]

so how worried should I be of all that water and sludge?

[JackT]

Carolina? You mean North Carolina? I get confused when its not basketball season.

[Tim Walsh]

LOL yep yep.. yesterday was UGLY... My little brother goes there so it's nice to see him even if it was a fugly game

[Doug Zielke]

Sludge cannot be a good sign for your engine, Tim.
To me, it suggests a motor that often ran with dirty oil for prolonged mileage. Motor oils wear out when their additive packages lose the ability to keep the by-products of combustion in suspension (so the filter can remove it.) Other additives that combat corrosion due to water and acid formation, also deteriorate with dirty oil.

I'm presently doing a top-end re-build of my '81 SC, and with approx 80K miles on the clock, the insides of the motor are absolutely free of sludge. This can only be due to frequent oil & filter changes.

[Tim Walsh]

hmm.. would the sludge build up even after the car sat for so long? or would it be something that built up as the car was running. in other words did it form before or after the car was "put out to pasture" by the PO?

either way it's not good. I'm revising my plan of attack for getting The Nest the way I want it. I think once I get this engine running ok I'll rebuild the other long block and the extra 915 tranny I've got. Then put those two in so I'll know what kind of condition my motor/tranny is in since what's in there is a real unknown.

sound good?

[michaelw]

Fear The Turtle!

Michael
87 Targa
Wilmington, NC but MD grad!

[Tim Walsh]

BAH!! wait til basketball season.. wait.... we sucked at that too.. nevermind At least I can root for the spartans since I go to UNCG

[nostatic]

sounds like a job for ATF in the engine

[Jim Garfield]

Bill, what do you think about taking the car out in the winter if you drive it for 2hrs.?
Wouldn't that burn off any condensation in the oil? I NEVER like to take the car out
unless I'm going to drive at least 45 min. and preferably 2hrs even in the summer.

Here in southern RI we might not get a snowfall that they salt/sand for till mid Jan.
I hate to put the car away until the last possible moment. I don't drive if the roads
are mucked up, but on the other hand I hate the thought of looking at a beautiful
Dec. day and not being able to go for a ride.

[Bill Verburg]

l33t9eek, I would be very concerned as its a glaring sign of a lack of basic maintainance.

Jim Garfield, I hear you, usually we are ok up here until T'Giving but we have had the ground covered on 4 separate mornings so far this year, and I haven't used the Porsche for 3 wks, the Audi has its winter boots on the earliest ever. The problem w/ winter driving even for extended periods of time is that ambient temps are generally so low that the engine is operating at the opening temps of the thermostats ie ~185&deg F or so. The longer the drive, the more moisture is driven out of the oil. I have seen cars driven for short distances and put away with fresh oil that have had ice in the crankcase(makes an interesting noise when started)

There are those more knowledge able than I that do reccommend ocasional exercise, I really don't know whats best. I do know that in the 25 yrs I've owned the car I have almost never driven in the winter, the car still looks like new(sort of), partialy as a result.

[Tim Walsh]

ya I"m worried since the PO wasn't a mechanical guy, but then I wouldn't have the car if he were . He only changed the oil twice in 2 years of occational driving. The second time he overfilled it, let it sit for a year and then sold it to me dirt cheap.

I'll be rebuilding the extra longblock and tranny I got with the car so that routes already covered but what would be the best way to combat the sludge and damage that's been done to it?

[POPS]

I had the same problem. When it rains, the motor gets wet.(great German engineering) By chance, I found out my valve cover was letting water into the motor through the top of the upper valve cover. Good luck. John

[Tim Walsh]

hmm.. I'll have to check that.. sounds strange though.

[JSDSKI]

Use nostatic's plan - ATF and hand crank until it breaks loose. Then try to get it running. If it had water in it, you've taken it out anyway. I think the theme here is: the more a 911 is driven the better off it is. The more heat cycles the engine and trans goes through the better. Get it up to operating temp and stay there long enough to burn off and filter out condensation, combustion acids, dead spiders, whatever - these cars are really built like tanks and can stand an enormous amount of abuse, both from lazy PO's and racing.

I got a 72T in Nov 01. It too, had been sitting around for a long while - although the PO was great on maintenence - it hadn't been running for months. Anyway, I did the Marvel Mystery Oil routine (same as ATF) with cheap 20w50 and changed the oil and filter once a week for about two months. At the same time, I squirted B12 through the stacks and linkages every weekend and put in a bottle of Techron. In the meantime, I drove the car to work every day!!! It never missed a beat and I swear, it ran a little better every day. I think it was just happy to be on the road and running! Does it blow some smoke ? Yep. Does it foul plugs ? Not too bad. Should it be rebuilt ? Yep. But until I can and do rebuild it, I'm going to drive it and enjoy it.

My feeling is, restore them while you drive them, unless you have a ton of bucks to drop off with the car at the restorer's shop. More cars have been ruined while sitting and waiting for the owner to start/finish the perfect job then have ever been ruined by being driven while you do a bit or component group at a time.

I like your plan. Get it running. Then figure out what needs to be done. And then create a plan to get the car where you want it. Just don't leave it on the side of the road while you create the perfect plan.....

[Tim Walsh]

That's exactly my plan. Just gotta drop the engine so that I can clean out the mice nests first. It's hard to run an engine without cooling

This thing has given me more suprises than a good mystery movie. I'm just waitin' to pull the heads and find out it's got an 'S' spec motor in it or somethin' crazy