Car Companies Say Home Repairs Are 'Legally Problematic,' Seek Copyright Restrictions

[jimbauman]

I thought this was a joke at first but....

Automakers to gearheads: Stop repairing cars

JB

[Luccia at Pelican Parts]

It is definitely causing an uproar with the masses. Will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

[Jack Stands]

I think they ultimately want to have total control of their product, putting you at their mercy. Unless you want to stick with older classic cars, I think you're probably best served to simply lease a new one and return it when the lease is over. The complexity of the new cars (actually rolling computers) makes even the most tech savvy technician cringe.

[midnight911]

the article implies the issue is mostly for software programmable pieces?

[Trackrash]

The car companies have been working toward this for some time. Only reason we can have an OBD scanner that will read basic codes from most cars is the government required it.

One thing will not change. New cars will have new technology that we DYIers can't fix. As the car ages we manage to catch up.

Still car manufactures want you to take their car in to the dealer for maintenance and repairs. I read recently that some manufactures want to sell cheap and charge more for maintenance. It would be like owning an inkjet printer....

[fanaudical]

Here's a similar thread I started in Off-Topic last week:

You knew it would happen someday...

[tirwin]

Saw this article the other day and I meant to post but I was traveling. Crazy.

I had a friend that put a strut brace in an Mitsubishi Eclipse while under warranty back in the '90s. Took it in for regular service and the service manager tried to void the warranty.

I get the idea that if you make something and then I alter it and use it far beyond it's intended use, I should accept what happens as my fault. But the car companies are going too far with this. Frankly, I hope they keep this up... Ultimately they will create a market that someone else will be happy to step in and fill.

I think it's best to treat a warranty as limited protection against infant mortality. After the warranty period is up, I get to do whatever I want.

[jimbauman]

Originally Posted by midnight911

the article implies the issue is mostly for software programmable pieces?

Good point. Let's take Steve Wong for example. He takes a stock chip, changes a few variables, and sells a new chip that is basically the manufacturer's property... In retrospect, I'm surprised he (or any number of chip guys) have managed to escape litigation.

[Matt Monson]

I can see the OEMs copyrighting the actual code that they create to program the ECUs. However, if someone like Cobb Tuning sends their hacks in to download, read, and decipher the code; AND then they rewrite it to make the engine perform differently the copyright claim becomes difficult to defend. I suspect that someone like Cobb or EVOMS is in fact using a larger percentage of the base code and only changing certain parameters, so maybe that would be something the OEMS could challenge. But the OEMS would have to prove it definitively to get some sort of judgment or injunction.

BGB Motorsports offers reflashes for the 987 family of cars. They have someone who is actually an OEM code writer (for companies other than Porsche) who is a partner in their ECU reflash company. What they have told me is the newer Siemens (versus the previous Bosch) ECUs are much more complex with respect to how the code is written. And I've seen some conversations about how VW/Audi and other OEMs have actually been introducing multiple ECUs for the same models. I'm not just talking year to year, but even within the same model year for the same exact spec vehicle!

Is there an argument for intellectual property here? Sure. Is it going to impact anything air cooled or even anything produced within the last 10 years? I highly doubt it.

[Charles Freeborn]

I have not read all the articles and responses, but at first blush I would assume there are not only the copyright issues already said, but also liability, emissions and warranty issues in play. If a user changes the programing on their car and it cases injury, increased emissions or breaks something while under warranty I would not blame the manufacturer from trying to avoid any of those conditions. Are they being heavy handed in their methods? Well, yes, but that's what corporations do, after all.... Thankfully my '74 is WAY under the radar on that score...
-C

[RSTarga]

If they want to go in that direction, they should go to a lease only model. No car sales.

[wes_r]

One manufacturer I know of makes upwards of 70% profit on service. No one disputes new cars are increasingly more complex with advanced technology. Perhaps carmakers have finally found a legal reason to control repair choices- resulting in boosting their bottom lines.

[RSBob]

My TDi was just recalled for a software update in order for it to better pass emissions in select states. The update was free, however would not be performed at all for any chipped or modified ECUs. Doh! Luckily I live in the boonies,and a check is not necessary but those in Cali whom are chipped have been hard-balled by VW.

[Neel]

Originally Posted by wes_r

One manufacturer I know of makes upwards of 70% profit on service. No one disputes new cars are increasingly more complex with advanced technology. Perhaps carmakers have finally found a legal reason to control repair choices- resulting in boosting their bottom lines.

Perhaps this is one of the reasons our older P-Cars are escalating in value.. I worked in industry for about 50 yrs.. Check my bio if you want......... Still do all the A/C work at my buddies Porsche Shop..Saw this as simply starting out with electronic ignition cica 1969.. I taught the new 'technology' for years.. Saw 'hot rods' go down the drain in the '70s due to over educated idiots and worries about this and that (Environment?) Give me a break.. That's thanks to Nader, Clabourgh(sp..) Jimmy Carter speedometers etc, etc.. (All idiots) "Cash for Clunkers"... And all the other BS.. I fell sorry for all you CA guys and your stupid emission standards(laws).. Other states, NY, NJ, PA, to name a few are close behind..
Sorry for the rant.. Cars have been my passion since childhood.. My $.02.. Fire away if you need to, but I'm not 'running from the kitchen'.. lol Maybe we should all start driving(leasing, good point), electric cars...........

[Trackrash]

^ Yea, the air cooled cars are the last of a breed. They are the last cars that are re-buildable and maintainable over the long run. Even in CA if the car is pre '75 you can do as you please with upgrades.

On my '71, no power steering, no power brakes, no ABS , no power seats, no power windows, no stability control, no OBD, no cat, no electronic emission controls.....

On my '09 Charger I took it to the dealer when the ABS light was on. They wanted $130 JUST TO SCAN the system. IN ADDITION to the repair! I don't think so. It used to be that the FLAPS would scan your system. Not any more....

That was two years ago. Now Amazon has scanner for $44! So we will see how much control the manufactures ultimately have.

[GH85Carrera]

Airplanes have been off limits to the owner making changes at will for a long time. With an airplane the owner can only do the most basic of tasks. Everything else needs a certified mechanic and a log book entry. Cars will just be more of the same.

[Trog]

Originally Posted by Trackrash

On my '09 Charger I took it to the dealer when the ABS light was on. They wanted $130 JUST TO SCAN the system. IN ADDITION to the repair! I don't think so. It used to be that the FLAPS would scan your system. Not any more....

That was two years ago. Now Amazon has scanner for $44! So we will see how much control the manufactures ultimately have.

I had a similar incident with my daily driver. My Check Engine Light came on. Dealer told me there's a $130 charge to scan the ECU. If they don't find a problem, I'd have to pay the $130. If they do find a problem, it's covered by warranty. So, I authorize them to proceed. Buddy tells me they scanned my car and couldn't find any issues. They reset the CEL, and wanted me to fork over $130. I said I would be happy to as soon as they replaced the ECU. I explained that if the CEL was illuminating for no reason, then obviously the ECU is defective! Took a while for the service manager to understand my logic.....I asked him, if you had a smoke detector that activated every night for no reason, wouldn't you consider it defective?

I left without paying.

[86 911 Targa]

Originally Posted by Trackrash

^ Yea, the air cooled cars are the last of a breed. They are the last cars that are re-buildable and maintainable over the long run. Even in CA if the car is pre '75 you can do as you please with upgrades.

On my '71, no power steering, no power brakes, no ABS , no power seats, no power windows, no stability control, no OBD, no cat, no electronic emission controls.....

On my '09 Charger I took it to the dealer when the ABS light was on. They wanted $130 JUST TO SCAN the system. IN ADDITION to the repair! I don't think so. It used to be that the FLAPS would scan your system. Not any more....

That was two years ago. Now Amazon has scanner for $44! So we will see how much control the manufactures ultimately have.

For many years, the car manufacturers correctly claimed that the scan software was proprietary.

However, at least in California, the emission testing software was released into the public domain.

For our '03 Outback, the scans can be performed at PEP boys at no charge.

If the Amazon scanner includes the software and error codes definitions,
that is a great deal.............

Gerry

[Lapkritis]

You can scan a 2016 model year OBD2 with the same tool as a model year 1996 OBD2. With wiring harness jumpers, you can scan even older that supported OBD1/pre-obd diagnostics.

My tool of choice: Ross-Tech: Home

Would prefer to see legislation protect the "right to repair" of citizens. Otherwise, cars should be classified as a public utility.

[Matt Monson]

You can now buy scanners that are wireless and compatible with your smart phone. Plus into the obd port and it is talking to your iPhone or Nexxus!