Looking for ideas... I need a new project
 

Well, folks. It's coming up on 5 years since I bought my SC. I am coming up to the end of all the things I set out to do to the car. I know it will never really be 'done' but the the major stuff will be over and I'll mainly be on to driving the stink out of it.

One of the things I have come to realize is how much I've enjoyed working on the car. I knew precisely diddly-squat about aircooled Porsches when I first started and thanks to Pelican and many of up you I've had a blast.

So I've been thinking recently about starting another project. I have been thinking about different ideas for a long time. I briefly considered some of those ideas for the current car but I ultimately decided to keep the SC close to original.

My plan right now is to keep the SC so I won't be Porsche-less while I work on the new project because I'm expecting it will take much longer than I think it will. :)

I have a whole bunch of questions and ideas to kick around, but a good place to start is the beginning.

Here is the first set of rules:
- This is not preservation. Anything goes.
- Numbers matching doesn't matter
- I want to explore modern technology while keeping the old aircooled vibe
- Experimentation is ok
- Form follows function
- likely will be back-dating the exterior

I'm thinking the starting point will be a 3.6 in a lightened chassis.

There are a few areas of Porsche history I want to study up on for inspiration. The first is the classic RS/RSR. Can anyone recommended good sources of information for reading? I'd like to read up on the technical details as well as the design history like why certain choices were made.

The second is the IROC cars. Same thing. History and technical details.

Last question for now. Where should I think about looking for a donor chassis? A couple of years ago I probably would've started with an SC chassis but with the price increases recently I'm not sure that is the best way to go anymore. Someone recommended at starting with a 993 chassis. Thoughts?

Lots to discuss and think about but this should get the discussion going. I've got a lot to work out before I can really get serious about getting started.

What a lovely 'problem' to have.
For what its worth, I would have a look at the 3.0RS and the SCRS for inspiration.
Both built in very small numbers.

Both are variations on the 3.0 theme.
Both are still pretty unique in the tribute world.

964 3.6 as standard (euro) should give around 260HP, with PMOs or Carbs even more. This kind of hp in a lightened turbo-body car will be serious fun.
Having a later engine at hand means you can find one of the only bargains that seem to still exist in the air-cooled Porsche world: a 3.2 or SC roller.
Should* mean minimal rust repair, which is huge saving compared to earlier bodies.

Besides, all those school fees paid on sorting your 83 SC will come in handy if you're working on a preG 3.2 or SC.

For light weight and cheap, start with a 912.

Or a 914 GT?

Try the book "Porsche Unexpected"

My wife definitely thinks I have a problem. I am afflicted with acute tinkeritis. I guess I'm one of those people that enjoys the journey.

Yes, I like this thinking. What I'm sort of thinking is re-imagining the 3.0RS if it were built with modern innovation.

In the process of understanding the 3.0 CIS engine I learned a lot. The 3.6 seems like a good starting point. It's already twin-plugged. Modern fuel injection. I'm thinking of going the ITB route which probably means different EFI. That's ok. All part of the fun. Recently I have been reading billjam's thread. Very inspiring stuff!

Probably has to be a 1989 or earlier chassis, otherwise I will have to deal with emissions testing.

Yea, I feel like I know every inch of my car now so hopefully that knowledge pays dividends.

Have you built an air cooled engine yet?

Consider buying a 3.0 or 3.2 core and build it into your dream engine. Increase displacement, dual plug, ITB fuel injection. Plenty to tinker and spend money on.

When you are done, then look for a roller (911, 912, or 914) to drop it in and build it into a lightweight hotrod.

I did a partial tear down last year. That's when I started thinking about modifying it. After talking to several Pelicans I finally concluded the best thing to do was fix what needed to be fixed on this motor and put it all back together. And like I said, this way I can still drive while tinkering on the next thing.

A 3.2 or a 3.6 core also seems like a good starting point. Did some napkin math and the 3.0 wasn't 'as good' of a donor to start with, although there is some variation depending on whether it was big ports or not. Seemed like starting with a 3.6 was the cheapest per unit of displacement.

I like you approach though. Good way to sort of amortize the cost out.

I was in somewhat the same boat. I have been driving my '86 Targa for a few years, just finished redoing the interior. Always on the lookout for an early car, I recently bought a '72 911T with a 3.0L and some mods. Not a preservation-class numbers-matching car, but not a crazy resto-mod hot rod, either - somewhere in between. Since it is by no means original, there is no pressure to keep it that way. While I didn't plan on it becoming my project, it turns out it needed some engine work, so I am in the middle of a rebuild right now. The installation was already a bit hotrod, but I am planning an EFI conversion. Should keep me busy for a while.

+1 on Josh's suggestion, I did it a bit backwards. I will end up with a leftover engine case, which I imagine I can get repaired - already thinking about my next motor build.

John

Good advice........
 

Tim,

We have not met but we have some sort of connection in the past. I had composed a long reply last night to this thread but the deleted it before sending it. I did not want to sound to be a negative influence to your wonderful dreams. After seeing Josh D's post, I knew I was not alone about it.

Let me say it this way, if you have a dream like being an NBA player you should have some talent and skill to play basketball. Desire and motivation are ingredients we need. If you could not make the high school team do you think you could make the college level (forget the NBA). I am not saying you don't have talent, what I am saying is that you have not demonstrated that skill.

Have you realized that the undertaking of this amazing dream of yours would require a lot of time and money which most people don't have? But this should not stop you from doing what you like or aspire. Get ready and start some basic training projects like engine rebuilding. Then you will know later if you are really meant for the NBA. Wish you success. Good luck.

Tony

I'll check it out. Thanks.

John, all good advice. Engine is something that won't have a lot of other dependencies too and is something I can get started on sooner rather than later. Plus it doesn't take up as much space. In the meantime I can figure out what I want to do in terms of chassis and keep my eyes open for the right donor.

Maybe this will give you some inspiration.... Project Binky!

Seriously, watch it from the beginning. When you get to episodes 7,8,9 it gets really interesting as they sort out the steering geometry, pedal cluster and so on. I love how they go at it with completely accessible tools and equipment and easily store bought materials. Cutting one face off of rectangular steel tube and bending flanges on the remaining legs to make flanged channel is simply brilliant.

If I had the space I'd scrounge a mid-year Targa (wait, I already have one...) and do a sort of street rod / rallye car /Mad Max makeover to it. Definitely a 3.6 Motronic poweplant....
-C

Of all the people on this board, Tim is one I would bank on to make a jump to a higher level.

When you speak of engine rebuilding, there are directions to follow. Journal/bore size, end play, gap assessment, seal integrity, overlap TDC intake lift, etc. If confused, read and ask questions. Not a race. Just rules and parameters. He is a clear thinker.

Engine building/rebuilding is profoundly elementary. Hard ass grunt work, but easy-ish for a guy who thinks better than most AND has just a touch of dough and no defined time limit.

Time is the big driver. Profit motivated? Tim has to face off with the competition. Very tough. Experience rules.

No time clock? Tim is far better than the the other guy in the same position. Take that to the bank.

Charles, I've only made it through episode 2 so far but I was hooked with the references to Police Squad, Monty Python, the A-team... I'm really enjoying it. Thanks for sharing. It's all about enjoying it, right?

Enjoying is absolutely what everything is about! Those guys are a great mix of wit and wisdom. Good fab skills too. Pretty soon you'll be saying "make the noise" to pretty much every electronic device....

Keep us posted on the project. So many ideas, so little time...

-C

Questions on the research list.

Anyone know if Singer publishes engine specs for any of their cars? I gather they've used at least a couple of different engine builders from reading old posts.

Hey Tim, This is great! I'm in full support of your project!

Question: are you thinking of starting with 964 w/stock coil over suspension or are you thinking torsion bar car? Or...torsion bar car converted to coil overs?!

My only real area of expertise is my own suspension (lol) but I've been really interested in seeing a project car done with a GT3 setup like the Elephant Racing GT3 (or similar).

Either way, I'm excited for ya, and will lend you my support throughout. Take LOTS of pictures. ;)

Cheers,

- Craig_D

Great question.

I have two different thoughts and this is where I'm talking about I need to do some research.

Option 1: start with a 964

Pros seem to be that everything is setup already for a 3.6 and like you said it is already stock coilovers. What I don't know is how difficult it is to lighten compared to say an SC or Carrera as a starting point? Another consideration is that with a post 87-chassis I would have to deal with emissions inspections every year. That may not be an big issue but it is something to factor in. I think the Singer guys start with a 964 base most of the time from what I've read so it seems it can be done.

Option 2: start with an SC or Carrera

May be cheaper to find a roller. Lighter than the 964 as a starting point. Coilovers would require strengthening the chassis. 87 might be the sweet spot if I wanted to go with the G50 trans. I have looked at the ER GT3 front suspension -- it's funny you mentioned that. I think it's something like 1/2 the weight of what it replaces.

Someone above also suggested a 912 as a starting point. I think it's pre-76 chassis that are more susceptible to rust. (Was 76 the year they started using galvanizied chassis?). That's an idea worth considering too. Need more data there.

I know Singer offers a 3.6 with 270 HP and a 360 HP 3.8L engine. I don't know if they publish any other specs on it, but I bet a 3.8L engine in that car feels like a rocket.

I am on the same page with you--my car has been as much an enjoyable education in cars as it has been something fun to drive. I can look at something in my car, post a question on this forum, and get an amazing amount of info from the experience of others.

You know what I would do if I could? I would get a 3.6 liter engine and an engine stand and take my time learning everything about it as I took it apart. Then, you can do whatever mods you want to it like ITB's, dual-plug, whatever. Once it's done, you could put it in something else or drop the monster into your existing car. You could certainly build something that looks like a Singer engine.

Singer now offers a 4.0. I think Pink builds them.

Their engines are built by Cosworth in LA. I seem to remember hearing the general specs in one of the videos - maybe Chris Harris?

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That is very much in line with my thinking right now.

I knew that Singer makes a 3.8. I was just wondering if anyone knew, or maybe speculated about, the specs. Which pistons, cams, etc. I think I remember reading they use the Jenvey ITBs. Just wondering which engine management system they use. There seems like an awful lot of good choices on the market today. I would like to see some different engine management interfaces up close in person.

It's my understanding that one of the reasons to go the ITB route is the ability to use more lively cams.

I was also reading last night where someone claimed that the performance of the varioram is not because of the dual plenum but because of the the bigger ports. If that's true and I really were to get away from the stock engine management, maybe that means a varioram based engine is a better starting point.

I would like to read up on some 'hot rodded' 3.6-based builds and study what they did and why.

I have been reading billjam's thread recently. He has amazing skills. I particularly like how he fit the older style oil cooler. Uwanna did the same thing on his 3.6.

I now remember seeing that video a long time ago. Thanks for the reminder.

Should've been no surprise that Harvey Weidman did the wheels. I imagine that other than noting it has ITB and a GT3 crank they are probably not very keen on giving out too many details.

Obviously the Singers are at a entirely different level. Still I think they are worthy inspiration.

One of the guys in the video said something along the lines of "it's very easy to take something that has been well engineered and muck it up." A lot of wisdom in that statement.

The other good line if from someone in the Vintage Racing world (Goodwood?)... that goes something like "these cars already have history. The only history you can add to that is bad..."

I don't know how tight lipped they are about their process. I imagine they get a lot of "tire kickers" and don't have the time humor them all. Rothsport up here in OR is also a fabulous engine builder. Jeff is pretty generous with information, especially if you're doing at least a token amount of business with him. I buy my Brad Penn from him and use the opportunity to pick his brain while I'm there.

This conversation has gotten me thinking .... what if... one could mate up a C4 or similar AWD driveline to a pre-smog ('74 here in OR) chassis with a nice tidy little 3.6 or 3.8 built powerplant? That would be a fun car to drive... sort of a Binky goes Porsche project.... Wow that could get expensive...but cool...

If a 3.0, I'd put a TBitz EFI kit on it

Georgia time window for exempting cars from emissions? 25 years?

I like the 964 option, if so.

What's the dealio on the Mezger motor? They are present through the 993, I think, so no issues there. Is that correct?

Does the 993 have adjustable cam timing? That has to help.

You're going about this all wrong. Come to CT and help me with my car. I can easily come up with 5 yrs of work for ya! ;)

Seriously, good luck, so many better choices.

Hmmm... Short answer: I have no idea. Besides the driveline itself, what other stuff would have to come along? I noticed in the Singer video that they had the ABS module up front. Interesting idea though!

Yep, 25. Emissions only applies to the greater Atlanta metro area. Up until 1998 you could apply for an exemption for kit cars, hot rods, etc. Not any more. There is a link to an EPA doc on compliance for non-original engines I haven't read yet.

'96 and later have to be connected via OBD-II. There is a different process for pre-OBD testing. No idea what that entails.

I believe you are correct on the Mezger. Last year I thought about going the 3.6 route in the current car. Short version was that the '95 engine was sort of a sweet spot.

Tippy,

Considered that last year while I had my engine out.

Have you seen this thread?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/886014-911-engine-management-kit.html

Looks like a really well thought out system.

I'm really leaning towards a 3.6 starting point but nothing is firmly decided at this point.

The company I work for has our HQ in Acton, MA. How far away is that? :D

I sure have, both kits are beautifully executed. I personally seen the TBitz in person on a 3.0, and the openess of the engine compartment with clean fuel rails just looked awfully beautiful.

Makes the car look so light and nimble removing that honking CIS and bloated airbox.

I think you can't go wrong with either kit, but I believe there is a far larger following with MegaSquirt than AEM.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10...0dc1778bdf.jpg

This is my engine about a year ago. It seemed like such a shame to put all that CIS stuff back on. It works great now, but it sure is ugly.

Snap-ON MT2500's for sale on Ebay with the mid 2000's Euro, Domestic and Asian cartridges $500-700-ish Kit probably will include adapters to pre OBD 2. However, the newer Porsche specific unit may be best and it is probably retro OBD2 compliant. Can't remember name. I think there is only one real provider. Ross-Tech is VW. Someone will know the name.

Oi. I just read through the GA DMV policy.

No longer possible to obtain 'hot rod' status in GA.

If I don't want to deal with emissions I'm left with '90 and earlier chassis choices. More reason to start with the engine. By the time I get done I will have probably bought another year or two worth of chassis options. Getting emissions done may not be a big deal but I'd prefer to just not have to deal with it.

Or I could move.

"Kids, we're moving back to Alabama. Daddy needs a hot rod."

pre-'90 is an awful lot of really good platforms to choose from...
As for doing an AWD transplant, you'd start with a C4 that had miraculously been dropped or rolled on it's roof without damaging any of the running gear and start cutting away the tub until you've got just the mounting points left. Then start cutting and welding your pre-90 tub to accept it all. There will be many cups of tea...or coffee for us Yanks.
-c