Looking for ideas... I need a new project

[tirwin]

Well, folks. It's coming up on 5 years since I bought my SC. I am coming up to the end of all the things I set out to do to the car. I know it will never really be 'done' but the the major stuff will be over and I'll mainly be on to driving the stink out of it.

One of the things I have come to realize is how much I've enjoyed working on the car. I knew precisely diddly-squat about aircooled Porsches when I first started and thanks to Pelican and many of up you I've had a blast.

So I've been thinking recently about starting another project. I have been thinking about different ideas for a long time. I briefly considered some of those ideas for the current car but I ultimately decided to keep the SC close to original.

My plan right now is to keep the SC so I won't be Porsche-less while I work on the new project because I'm expecting it will take much longer than I think it will.

I have a whole bunch of questions and ideas to kick around, but a good place to start is the beginning.

Here is the first set of rules:
- This is not preservation. Anything goes.
- Numbers matching doesn't matter
- I want to explore modern technology while keeping the old aircooled vibe
- Experimentation is ok
- Form follows function
- likely will be back-dating the exterior

I'm thinking the starting point will be a 3.6 in a lightened chassis.

There are a few areas of Porsche history I want to study up on for inspiration. The first is the classic RS/RSR. Can anyone recommended good sources of information for reading? I'd like to read up on the technical details as well as the design history like why certain choices were made.

The second is the IROC cars. Same thing. History and technical details.

Last question for now. Where should I think about looking for a donor chassis? A couple of years ago I probably would've started with an SC chassis but with the price increases recently I'm not sure that is the best way to go anymore. Someone recommended at starting with a 993 chassis. Thoughts?

Lots to discuss and think about but this should get the discussion going. I've got a lot to work out before I can really get serious about getting started.

[Matthew Barnes]

What a lovely 'problem' to have.
For what its worth, I would have a look at the 3.0RS and the SCRS for inspiration.
Both built in very small numbers.

Both are variations on the 3.0 theme.
Both are still pretty unique in the tribute world.

964 3.6 as standard (euro) should give around 260HP, with PMOs or Carbs even more. This kind of hp in a lightened turbo-body car will be serious fun.
Having a later engine at hand means you can find one of the only bargains that seem to still exist in the air-cooled Porsche world: a 3.2 or SC roller.
Should* mean minimal rust repair, which is huge saving compared to earlier bodies.

Besides, all those school fees paid on sorting your 83 SC will come in handy if you're working on a preG 3.2 or SC.

[GT3DE]

For light weight and cheap, start with a 912.

[wayner]

Or a 914 GT?

[fiminod]

Try the book "Porsche Unexpected"

[tirwin]

Originally Posted by Matthew Barnes

What a lovely 'problem' to have.

My wife definitely thinks I have a problem. I am afflicted with acute tinkeritis. I guess I'm one of those people that enjoys the journey.

Originally Posted by Matthew Barnes

For what its worth, I would have a look at the 3.0RS and the SCRS for inspiration.
Both built in very small numbers.

Both are variations on the 3.0 theme.
Both are still pretty unique in the tribute world.

Yes, I like this thinking. What I'm sort of thinking is re-imagining the 3.0RS if it were built with modern innovation.

Originally Posted by Matthew Barnes

964 3.6 as standard (euro) should give around 260HP, with PMOs or Carbs even more. This kind of hp in a lightened turbo-body car will be serious fun.

In the process of understanding the 3.0 CIS engine I learned a lot. The 3.6 seems like a good starting point. It's already twin-plugged. Modern fuel injection. I'm thinking of going the ITB route which probably means different EFI. That's ok. All part of the fun. Recently I have been reading billjam's thread. Very inspiring stuff!

Originally Posted by Matthew Barnes

Having a later engine at hand means you can find one of the only bargains that seem to still exist in the air-cooled Porsche world: a 3.2 or SC roller.
Should* mean minimal rust repair, which is huge saving compared to earlier bodies.

Probably has to be a 1989 or earlier chassis, otherwise I will have to deal with emissions testing.

Originally Posted by Matthew Barnes

Besides, all those school fees paid on sorting your 83 SC will come in handy if you're working on a preG 3.2 or SC.

Yea, I feel like I know every inch of my car now so hopefully that knowledge pays dividends.

[Josh D]

Have you built an air cooled engine yet?

Consider buying a 3.0 or 3.2 core and build it into your dream engine. Increase displacement, dual plug, ITB fuel injection. Plenty to tinker and spend money on.

When you are done, then look for a roller (911, 912, or 914) to drop it in and build it into a lightweight hotrod.

[tirwin]

Originally Posted by Josh D

Have you built an air cooled engine yet?

Consider buying a 3.0 or 3.2 core and build it into your dream engine. Increase displacement, dual plug, ITB fuel injection. Plenty to tinker and spend money on.

When you are done, then look for a roller (911, 912, or 914) to drop it in and build it into a lightweight hotrod.

I did a partial tear down last year. That's when I started thinking about modifying it. After talking to several Pelicans I finally concluded the best thing to do was fix what needed to be fixed on this motor and put it all back together. And like I said, this way I can still drive while tinkering on the next thing.

A 3.2 or a 3.6 core also seems like a good starting point. Did some napkin math and the 3.0 wasn't 'as good' of a donor to start with, although there is some variation depending on whether it was big ports or not. Seemed like starting with a 3.6 was the cheapest per unit of displacement.

I like you approach though. Good way to sort of amortize the cost out.

[jdbunda]

I was in somewhat the same boat. I have been driving my '86 Targa for a few years, just finished redoing the interior. Always on the lookout for an early car, I recently bought a '72 911T with a 3.0L and some mods. Not a preservation-class numbers-matching car, but not a crazy resto-mod hot rod, either - somewhere in between. Since it is by no means original, there is no pressure to keep it that way. While I didn't plan on it becoming my project, it turns out it needed some engine work, so I am in the middle of a rebuild right now. The installation was already a bit hotrod, but I am planning an EFI conversion. Should keep me busy for a while.

+1 on Josh's suggestion, I did it a bit backwards. I will end up with a leftover engine case, which I imagine I can get repaired - already thinking about my next motor build.

John

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by Josh D

Have you built an air cooled engine yet?

Consider buying a 3.0 or 3.2 core and build it into your dream engine. Increase displacement, dual plug, ITB fuel injection. Plenty to tinker and spend money on.

When you are done, then look for a roller (911, 912, or 914) to drop it in and build it into a lightweight hotrod.

Tim,

We have not met but we have some sort of connection in the past. I had composed a long reply last night to this thread but the deleted it before sending it. I did not want to sound to be a negative influence to your wonderful dreams. After seeing Josh D's post, I knew I was not alone about it.

Let me say it this way, if you have a dream like being an NBA player you should have some talent and skill to play basketball. Desire and motivation are ingredients we need. If you could not make the high school team do you think you could make the college level (forget the NBA). I am not saying you don't have talent, what I am saying is that you have not demonstrated that skill.

Have you realized that the undertaking of this amazing dream of yours would require a lot of time and money which most people don't have? But this should not stop you from doing what you like or aspire. Get ready and start some basic training projects like engine rebuilding. Then you will know later if you are really meant for the NBA. Wish you success. Good luck.

Tony

[tirwin]

Originally Posted by fiminod

Try the book "Porsche Unexpected"

I'll check it out. Thanks.

[tirwin]

Originally Posted by jdbunda

I was in somewhat the same boat. I have been driving my '86 Targa for a few years, just finished redoing the interior. Always on the lookout for an early car, I recently bought a '72 911T with a 3.0L and some mods. Not a preservation-class numbers-matching car, but not a crazy resto-mod hot rod, either - somewhere in between. Since it is by no means original, there is no pressure to keep it that way. While I didn't plan on it becoming my project, it turns out it needed some engine work, so I am in the middle of a rebuild right now. The installation was already a bit hotrod, but I am planning an EFI conversion. Should keep me busy for a while.

+1 on Josh's suggestion, I did it a bit backwards. I will end up with a leftover engine case, which I imagine I can get repaired - already thinking about my next motor build.

John

John, all good advice. Engine is something that won't have a lot of other dependencies too and is something I can get started on sooner rather than later. Plus it doesn't take up as much space. In the meantime I can figure out what I want to do in terms of chassis and keep my eyes open for the right donor.

[Charles Freeborn]

Maybe this will give you some inspiration.... Project Binky!

Seriously, watch it from the beginning. When you get to episodes 7,8,9 it gets really interesting as they sort out the steering geometry, pedal cluster and so on. I love how they go at it with completely accessible tools and equipment and easily store bought materials. Cutting one face off of rectangular steel tube and bending flanges on the remaining legs to make flanged channel is simply brilliant.

If I had the space I'd scrounge a mid-year Targa (wait, I already have one...) and do a sort of street rod / rallye car /Mad Max makeover to it. Definitely a 3.6 Motronic poweplant....
-C

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Have you realized that the undertaking of this amazing dream of yours would require a lot of time and money which most people don't have? But this should not stop you from doing what you like or aspire.

Of all the people on this board, Tim is one I would bank on to make a jump to a higher level.

When you speak of engine rebuilding, there are directions to follow. Journal/bore size, end play, gap assessment, seal integrity, overlap TDC intake lift, etc. If confused, read and ask questions. Not a race. Just rules and parameters. He is a clear thinker.

Engine building/rebuilding is profoundly elementary. Hard ass grunt work, but easy-ish for a guy who thinks better than most AND has just a touch of dough and no defined time limit.

Time is the big driver. Profit motivated? Tim has to face off with the competition. Very tough. Experience rules.

No time clock? Tim is far better than the the other guy in the same position. Take that to the bank.

[tirwin]

Originally Posted by Charles Freeborn

Maybe this will give you some inspiration.... Project Binky!

Seriously, watch it from the beginning. When you get to episodes 7,8,9 it gets really interesting as they sort out the steering geometry, pedal cluster and so on. I love how they go at it with completely accessible tools and equipment and easily store bought materials. Cutting one face off of rectangular steel tube and bending flanges on the remaining legs to make flanged channel is simply brilliant.

If I had the space I'd scrounge a mid-year Targa (wait, I already have one...) and do a sort of street rod / rallye car /Mad Max makeover to it. Definitely a 3.6 Motronic poweplant....
-C

Charles, I've only made it through episode 2 so far but I was hooked with the references to Police Squad, Monty Python, the A-team... I'm really enjoying it. Thanks for sharing. It's all about enjoying it, right?

[Charles Freeborn]

Originally Posted by tirwin

Charles, I've only made it through episode 2 so far but I was hooked with the references to Police Squad, Monty Python, the A-team... I'm really enjoying it. Thanks for sharing. It's all about enjoying it, right?

Enjoying is absolutely what everything is about! Those guys are a great mix of wit and wisdom. Good fab skills too. Pretty soon you'll be saying "make the noise" to pretty much every electronic device....

Keep us posted on the project. So many ideas, so little time...

-C

[tirwin]

Questions on the research list.

Anyone know if Singer publishes engine specs for any of their cars? I gather they've used at least a couple of different engine builders from reading old posts.

[Craig_D]

Hey Tim, This is great! I'm in full support of your project!

Question: are you thinking of starting with 964 w/stock coil over suspension or are you thinking torsion bar car? Or...torsion bar car converted to coil overs?!

My only real area of expertise is my own suspension (lol) but I've been really interested in seeing a project car done with a GT3 setup like the Elephant Racing GT3 (or similar).

Either way, I'm excited for ya, and will lend you my support throughout. Take LOTS of pictures.

Cheers,

- Craig_D

[tirwin]

Originally Posted by Craig_D

Hey Tim, This is great! I'm in full support of your project!


Question: are you thinking of starting with 964 w/stock coil over suspension or are you thinking torsion bar car? Or...torsion bar car converted to coil overs?!

My only real area of expertise is my own suspension (lol) but I've been really interested in seeing a project car done with a GT3 setup like the Elephant Racing GT3 (or similar).

Either way, I'm excited for ya, and will lend you my support throughout. Take LOTS of pictures.

Cheers,

- Craig_D

Great question.

I have two different thoughts and this is where I'm talking about I need to do some research.

Option 1: start with a 964

Pros seem to be that everything is setup already for a 3.6 and like you said it is already stock coilovers. What I don't know is how difficult it is to lighten compared to say an SC or Carrera as a starting point? Another consideration is that with a post 87-chassis I would have to deal with emissions inspections every year. That may not be an big issue but it is something to factor in. I think the Singer guys start with a 964 base most of the time from what I've read so it seems it can be done.

Option 2: start with an SC or Carrera

May be cheaper to find a roller. Lighter than the 964 as a starting point. Coilovers would require strengthening the chassis. 87 might be the sweet spot if I wanted to go with the G50 trans. I have looked at the ER GT3 front suspension -- it's funny you mentioned that. I think it's something like 1/2 the weight of what it replaces.

Someone above also suggested a 912 as a starting point. I think it's pre-76 chassis that are more susceptible to rust. (Was 76 the year they started using galvanizied chassis?). That's an idea worth considering too. Need more data there.

[Pstallo]

I know Singer offers a 3.6 with 270 HP and a 360 HP 3.8L engine. I don't know if they publish any other specs on it, but I bet a 3.8L engine in that car feels like a rocket.

I am on the same page with you--my car has been as much an enjoyable education in cars as it has been something fun to drive. I can look at something in my car, post a question on this forum, and get an amazing amount of info from the experience of others.

You know what I would do if I could? I would get a 3.6 liter engine and an engine stand and take my time learning everything about it as I took it apart. Then, you can do whatever mods you want to it like ITB's, dual-plug, whatever. Once it's done, you could put it in something else or drop the monster into your existing car. You could certainly build something that looks like a Singer engine.