Decision: daily driver 911 C4 or 968 w/limited slip diff.?
 

Let me first say that I did post this to the Porsche talk forum but it seems like none of those topics have had much response. If there were a more active "all models" forum I'd certainly try it as posting this question here in bound to have somewhat bias results. Still, do respond and please try to be factual rather than insulting. I get enough of the "lousy water-pumper" comments from 356 and 911 pals. http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat5.gif


I'm looking to buy a daily driver. 60 miles a day through a mountain canyon. Lots of fun but also the potential for snowfall. I'm wondering which would be best for this role. I'm looking to spend between $20-$25K on a car in good condition. I like the looks of the 968 and the fuel economy numbers.
Is the C4 worse on gas, requires more or less scheduled maint., better or worse performance wise? I have a pal that restores 356s and also wrenches his own C4. He'd help me with my car and I do wish to do as much of the work as I can whatever car I choose.
Also, I'm wondering which car would do better in a downhill, hard braking situation in a curve during slick conditions. I have ten miles of pre-dawn downhill twisties where deer and raccoon are frequently seen crossing the road. Either car would be wearing Blizzak snow tires during the late fall/early spring months.
Note: do not to factor driving ability into the scenario. Assume that I’ve been driving sports cars for the last 15 years and have autocrossed a 1978 911.
Taking the car’s appearance out of the equation (that one’s up to me), which would you choose and why?
92-95 6spd 968 Cab/Coupe or 89-94 5spd 911 C4 Cab/Coupe?

With aesthetics removed I'd prolly opt for the 968. These cars grip unbelievably well, and boast superb handling. They have a fair amount of power too. Something like $240. The 911 in general has a reputation for having picky handling. That might be an issue in snow. I would guess the parts would be around the same $$$.

Is this a joke?

My personal, -and biased- choice would be a 93 or later 968 coupe. If looks aren't a big concern, also give an S2 a try, they're %85 of the fun for half the cash.
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...
My page over1g@hotmail.com
Porsche owners Gallery.../My 944

The C4 is an amazing car in the snow. This is no contest. Rear engine and all wheel drive versus front engine rear drive. That's a no-brainer. The C4 is not a tricky car to drive at all. In fact, many 911 purists say it is too benign and fool-proof. It is an understeerer that anyone can drive fast.

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Tyson Schmidt
72 911 Cabriolet
92 C-2 Cabriolet

I'd vote for the C4 also. 4 wheel drive on snow tires, and a little bit heavier car. You may have trouble finding one in the price range of 20K to 25K though.

I don't have experience in either car, but I do drive a 911 all winter long on snow and ice.

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Bill Krause
'79 911SC Euro
MY PELICAN GALLERY

OH NO! not another 911 vs 968 topic. save yourself a lot of time and get page upon page of replies by using the search function. there was a huge topic on this a month or so ago. DEJA VU.

[This message has been edited by john walker's workshop (edited 10-01-2001).]

Thanks so much Mr. John Walker's but those threads you speak of didn't ask my very specific questions.
After reading the 4th "911 is the only true Porsche" I stopped. Whether or not someone thinks X is the only true whatever means zero to me.

If anyone has qualified and helpful comments regarding *my concerns*, I'd sure welcome them.

Thanks!

Tyson nailed it. Really can't believe you are even asking... not b/c the whole "911 vs. the world" thing- but rather the 4 wheel drive vs. two in the snow. If you plan to drive a bunch in the snow get the 4 wheel drive car. Hello?

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87 Carrera Cabriolet

Please don't disregard the fun factor. Yes, the C4 would provide some added security and grip on the uphill parts, but there's the sheer fun of a nicely controlled drift in fresh powder. (I ran a 924S for 4 Canadian winters on M&S tires.. What a blast A truely trustworthy car that allowed you to have fun) The question really comes down to the individual's preferance...maybe on the way you feel on a given morning, or the way you feel at the end of a long day at work. If you lived closer, I'd tell you to buy 'em both and leave the keys to whichever you rejected on a given day.
Life is full of tough choces.
Les

And hello to you too. I've been driving a BMW 328iS (rear drive) for years over the same roads with no problems. It's amazing what a well balance car with snow tires can go through. I'm usually passing all-drive Audis in fact.
My concerns (as clearly stated) were not restricted to performance in the snow. I only mentioned that the white stuff was possible.
Given the fact that I can/do drive well in the snow how would a 911 C4 handle in a slick downhill sweeper after you apply the brakes, compared to a front engined (balanced) 968? IE., oh Sh*#, a deer! Remember, that often the ability to stop overshadows the ability to go.
For the sake of this thread lets just pretend I said C2 instead of C4.

Cheers!

canyonlands:

a friend of ours has a 911 C4 and he takes it out once in a while in the snow. he says "instead of just the rear wheels spinning, i have all four wheels spinning and sliding now".

either the 911C4 or the 968 will be good in the snow if you have really good snow tires. i've driven the 924 in the winter with heavy duty Hakkepelita M+S studded tires and it was a blast! though the same car in the winter with "regular" high performance rain tires was not exactly "a blast".

either car will be fine, it's the tire choice that will be paramount! seeing that you would put Blizzaks on the car, you should be good to go. the 968 will be easy to control as it has a very nice ABS system on it. a friend of mine drove a 944S2 with a similar ABS system for over a decade in the snow and he never had a problem even in snow-packed upstate NY blizzards. the 911 C4 will be good too, and the all wheel drive will help. as far as "daily driver" goes, i'm not too familiar with as many firsthand winter experiences in a C4 other than our friend's car.

my thoughs:
try both in the winter or a heavy downpour and buy the one that you feel has the better control.

good luck!

obin

[This message has been edited by Obin Robinson (edited 10-02-2001).]

Porsche had a road test of several brands of high performance snow tires in their Christophorus (sp?) magazine last year. The tests were done just on their new cars, 996 and boxster, but it's worth looking at. They also have a chart with recomendations for tire/wheel sizes for use with chains.

Although the tests were done in Finland, there weren't any Hakkepelita's tested, but I wouldn't read much into that.

I have Goodyear UltraGrips on my 911, and they work very well, but I can't compare them to any other snow tire. There have been many advances in snow tires in the past few years, with new tread designs, siping, and special rubber compounds. Blizzaks were the first generation of that.

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Bill Krause
'79 911SC Euro
MY PELICAN GALLERY

This does not mean that BMW handles better on a wet road. Those Audi drivers were just more careful than you. Blizzaks can make your life little easier in the snow but do not overestimate it. Ice is always bad.

The most important thing however is the low grip of any winter tire on a dry, sunny day. Unless you have a second set of wheels and plan on changing them any given day depending on the weather you will find dry driving on Blizzaks much less enjoyable (much longer braking, poor handling, tire noise, etc).

I personally do not see any Porsche model as a daily driver in a bad weather, especially on twisty, snowy roads (well, maybe 954 Rally could do).
My advise :
For $ 25K, find a nice Audi for the winter.
You'll be passing everything, including C4s and 328's.

By the way, last year Autobild magazine has chosen Goodyear Ultragrips as the best winter tire in Germany, Pirelli Snowsports 210 were just behind and the Nokians dead last.
http://www.autobild.de/archiv/2000/10/41/reifen/ergebnis.php?channel=archiv&center=2000&ASAP=91abf 7a7d88dad5b29c8f2b4a4b0cb94




[This message has been edited by kr911 (edited 10-02-2001).]

Checkout the 911 parts for sale bbs, there is a C4 for sale over there

Man...I'm starting to wish I didn't even mention snow at all since that seems to be about all everyone is speaking of. I asked other questions that were more important to me that haven't been addressed at all like the difference in gas mileage and maintenance.
I appreciate the info regarding how the cars handle in snow with proper winter tires though. It's just that I didn't even say that I intended to drive it in the snow and that it was a "possibility". Meaning that I could very well be at work and have the white stuff fall before I get home. Reason enough to get an Audi instead? NOT. I have a Volvo wagon for the days when snow looks certain. And guess what, it's rwd! Even better, no LSD and only one drive wheel! It's been my winter car for years and with the Blizzaks I've never had any problem.
As to how on earth I could be passing AWD cars in my RWD Bimmer with good snow tires...
My guess is I'm just more comfortable in the white stuff, have better tires and really know my car. How many of those A4 Quattro owners do you think puts real snows on for the winter and takes their car out to see what it's limits are? I'm guessing not many. How many know the limits of their regular tires? Now I'd say that the average C4 owner is a bit different. It seems that even here though (from some comments made in these replies)there are still a lot of performance minded drivers that don't use the proper tires in the snow. You can't condemn the winter performance of a car when you've never properly equipped the car to begin with.

Thanks again and if someone could reply with a general idea of which car is more prone to shop time/expense and what the fuel economy figures on the C2 and C4 are typically, I'd appreciate it.

Cheers

you're a hard guy to please. mileage, 6 cyl vs 4cyl= no brainer
performance= same as above.
handling= 4wd vs 2wd= same as above.
slick downhill windy road, poss snow= all cars basically the same, gotta be careful
service cost=968 slightly cheaper
longevity= C4

[This message has been edited by john walker's workshop (edited 10-02-2001).]

Mr. Walker,

I’m not so hard to please when it comes to the simple questions I asked. Did I ask which car had better fuel economy? No. Why do you want to tell me which one does? I want to know what the C4’s is so I can determine if I can live with it with all things factored in.
Performance a no brainer? Why? Does the C4 pull more Gs on the pad? Have quicker acceleration times? I suppose that I’m just supposed to know these things and shouldn’t ask.
Slick downhill winding road; You say all cars basically the same but I was kind of thinking that the 911 would be at a disadvantage with the rear engine. But if you say they’re basically the same.
As to “gotta be careful”…I can only do so much. As my user ID implies, I don’t live in the typical American’s neighborhood. I’ve seen hundreds of deer near or on the road over the last three years. What I should do is expect that I’ll be faced with the scenario that I described and do my best to understand what I’m getting myself into with my new car. The alternative is to slow down to 30 mph (in a 50mph zone) and leave for work 30 minutes earlier. It’s not like I planned on driving recklessly.
You say longevity goes to the C4. Why? More parts avail? Higher popularity and familiarity among Porsche technicians?

I’d love to just go out and drive the cars. I would be here asking many of these questions if I could. I’ve never even seen a 968 in this state and the one Porsche dealer says “we don’t put anything on our lot over five years old.” So much for shopping there for a C4.

Mr. Walker,

I’m not so hard to please when it comes to the simple questions I asked. Did I ask which car had better fuel economy? No. Why do you want to tell me which one does? I want to know what the C4’s is so I can determine if I can live with it with all things factored in.
Performance a no brainer? Why? Does the C4 pull more Gs on the pad? Have quicker acceleration times? I suppose that I’m just supposed to know these things and shouldn’t ask.
Slick downhill winding road; You say all cars basically the same but I was kind of thinking that the 911 would be at a disadvantage with the rear engine. But if you say they’re basically the same.
As to “gotta be careful”…I can only do so much. As my user ID implies, I don’t live in the typical American’s neighborhood. I’ve seen hundreds of deer near or on the road over the last three years. What I should do is expect that I’ll be faced with the scenario that I described and do my best to understand what I’m getting myself into with my new car. The alternative is to slow down to 30 mph (in a 50mph zone) and leave for work 30 minutes earlier. It’s not like I planned on driving recklessly.
You say longevity goes to the C4. Why? More parts avail? Higher popularity and familiarity among Porsche technicians?

I’d love to just go out and drive the cars. I would be here asking many of these questions if I could. I’ve never even seen a 968 in this state and the one Porsche dealer says “we don’t put anything on our lot over five years old.” So much for shopping there for a C4.

i guess you're on your own then. and get some therapy. we're trying to help you and you come across as a jerk. here's a website for you: www.*********.com

[This message has been edited by john walker's workshop (edited 10-03-2001).]

If you're not concerned about RWD in the snow, then I'd say you should change your choices to C2 or 968, as you stated above.

In that case, in the rain or possible snow, a 968 is probably a better bet, due to the handling characteristics.

HOWEVER, a C4 does have the AWD advantage. Even though it's not the same AWD setup at the Audis/Subarus and SUV's have, it does provide increased traction, which can certainly help in the slippery stuff. Stopping is important. Controlling a vehicle while stopping is just as important.

On the flip side, if you plan on tracking your car, AWD may not be the best choice: I have heard that RWD 911's offer more 'fun' at the track, and can be pushed to the limits more. Don't know if that would be in your plans, though. Of course, the 968 is an excellent track car, with it's 50/50 weight distribution.

Tough questions, canyonlands.
-Z.


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PCA NNJR
My Toy:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate...ds/Zslalom.JPG

[This message has been edited by Z-man (edited 10-04-2001).]

Canyon guy- hello again. In your orig post you said that "I have a pal that restores 356s and also wrenches his own C4."


To me- that would answer your maint questions. The Porsche dealer WILL charge you an arm and a leg to work on either car- w/ you friend's help the C4 will be less expensive. It will also out-perform the 968 in just about every way. Yes, more g's, yes, better acceleration, etc.


To defend John Walker you did say "Is the C4 worse on gas"so he was answering your question.


Lastly, as Bill pointed out, good luck finding a nice c4 for $25,000.


Good luck, Sean.


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87 Carrera Cabriolet

I agree with John on this one: "we're trying to help you and you come across as a jerk"

Go to the library and dig up old Car and Drivers or Excellence articles on your own.

You attract more bees with honey than with vinegar.



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Adrian Pillow
1979 911 SC
1966 VW Microbus
PCA - Peachstate Region

I've had some nice replies from plenty of folks that don't downplay my questions as those that have obvious answers. I find that some replies came across to me with "I assume my statements are the final word/if I already know it then so should you." attitudes and found it a bit insulting . That and the fact I was mainly getting comments such as "I can't believe you're even asking this", "Is this a joke?" "OH NO! not another 911 vs 968 topic" and such. You'll never see me replying to those seeking advice in that manner. Just like you won't see me result to name-calling.
Yeah looking back, I sure did say "is the C4 worse on gas?". That it is isn't a given though and I was hoping for some numbers. You know it is possible that a 6 cylinder get better mileage than a 4. My past three BMWs probably got better mileage than most 4s including the 968.
Anyway, I'd like to offer a grateful thanks to those who responded with helpful replies. I've learned from them and that's what I came to this forum for.
Though I wasn't primarily focused on snow performance I was very happy indeed to hear that 911s and the 968 both do just fine in the stuff with real snow tires.
I've started to lean toward the a 911 due to a lot of what I've read on this forum and after looking at pictures of some very nice examples owned by you folks. There does happen to be a very nice looking C4 with 80K for "$27K OBO" http://images.autotrader.com/751/009/75100999_001622_240x160.jpg within 500 miles of me but I wonder if I'd get markedly better mileage with a C2 or even an older 911SC. Also, this isn't a car town and I can get local performance cars for less in many cases but I'll likely have to travel to find the right car.
I'm sure it won't be long before I'm back with more questions. Of course I'll search the archives first just like I did before I asked these.

Thanks again and Cheers!

Hi Again,
As I intimated before, I envy you your problem. The 968 is a beautifully balanced car, with handling characteristics which can be quickly understood. The water pumper means you have heat when you need it and there is lots of room under the hatch. On one hand you might consider it the rational sports car of the two. The other side of the coin: the motor is a four cylinder and sounds like it. Balance shafts do nothing for the aural senses. The car is an orphan, the last of the line. Some can't even identify it as a Porsche (the reverse snob factor)
The C4 is the equivalent of a light plane for the road. Reasonable space for luggage. One of the great engine songs (just hope you don't have to pay to have it rebuilt) And an AWD system that removed the phrase 'trailing throttle oversteer' from daily usage. Plus the resale value of a C4 should be better all other things being equal. Then there's the visual feast. I don't put a lot of miles on the Old E, still the shape of that car makes me smile when I walk into my garage. Whichever car you choose, Enjoy.
Les

Thanks for the insightful comparison Les. Valid points that I'll consider. I still want to see a 968 in person but seeing the photos of 70s and 80s 911s has been a bit infectious for me. It's rare for me to see a pre-90s 911 out in cowboy country. The photos of the SCs remind me of my many years in Florida.

BTW did any of you folks ever go Auto-Xing at Macdill AFB in Tampa with PCA or SCCA? About ten years ago I’d show up out there from time to time.

Cheers

Canyonlands, I only said 'is this a joke', because I think you can figure out that a 968 would be better for a panic stop while turning, downhill. The choice is kind of obvious to me, which is again why I stated that my post was MY '-biased' opinion.
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...
My page over1g@hotmail.com
Porsche owners Gallery.../My 944

With all those deer, how bout a F-150 with a brush guard? Sports cars and wild animals don't mix.

Off the top O my head I can think of a 300Z, Vette, AC Cobra replica (high dollar), twin turbo RX-7, 200hp Miata, Z3 and Viper in my little valley. I'm sure there are a few more. In fact there is a well-known (around here) Porsche racer that lives down the road from me. Monty something I think it is. He drives some little European job. Oh yeah and there's the Budweiser Beer guy that has the silver 2000? Carrera Cab. that lives right across the street from me. I guess we're all in the deer lottery together. Well, except my stakes are higher since I'm the only guy I can think of that rides a motorcycle to work from up here. The deer are why I bought my R1100S equipped with ABS brakes and why I wear full riding armor though.
Come to mention it, 911s and F150s don't mix either. There are more F-150s than deer I'd bet so you might want to trade that 89 911 in on one. You'd be safer you know.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/elklaff.gif

Heck, I forgot about all the moose. So much for brush guards!

What next?....shall I buy Special K or Corn Flakes?

Seriously, YOU drive the car so It's YOUR choice. Each car has it's own up and down sides. The 968 is more of a sports car than the C4, maybe you ought to buy one of each.

If you think a discussion of the differences between Corn Flakes and whatever is of more substance then you could have opted to not waste your time reading this.

Anyway, I've pretty much been able to discern which of the two cars would be better for me, thanks in large part to some of the replies here.

Thanks again.


[This message has been edited by canyonlands (edited 10-04-2001).]

i was bored, so i added up how many times you wrote I, ME or MY. 112 times, not counting your double post. you're not full of yourself are you?

[This message has been edited by john walker's workshop (edited 10-04-2001).]

Well it's not the 968. That car might be added at a later time since I think my wife will want her own "fun car".
I haven't figured out which year of 911 to buy though so I still have a lot of research to do. I've really liked some of the older cars I've seen photos of in replies at this forum. I'll have to figure out which years are "the good years". It'll be something I can get between $10K-$25K and I'll just have to decide if I want newer or older. I'm not looking for a show car and nor do I need one with exceptionally low miles so that amount of money should cover a broad year range. From the last ten years the only 911 I've been in extensively is the RS America. That car was great in my opinion but obviously it would me more than I wish to pay.
I have a pal that is fortunate enough to have a huge collection of rare American autos. Worth millions no doubt. I'd be perfectly happy with 4 or so Porsches, two BMWs and my motorcycle. I only have one space left in my garage though. Decisions decisions!

http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/...s/beerchug.gif
Cheers!

Wow, you were bored. Did you also go to a thread where you've been asking for advise and see how much you use the words I, me etc. etc.? You have some kind of degree in writing analysis from which you conclude that the totals of your word count are indicative of conceit? I don't have a degree in psychology but I'd bet your last reply was driven by a deeply routed grudge, prejudice or lack of self-esteem. Just filling up space here since you are bored and need something further to read.

Now here's the important part of this reply!!
Tell *me*, since you know how to gauge "full of yourselfness"...does the fact that though *I* serve *my* country in a full time job which puts *my* life on the line, spend many additional hours of *my* days in volunteer work and maintain current first aid and CPR certifications so that *I* can stop and render aid (like I just happened to do tonight after coming upon a terrible accident on my way home) to those in need give any balance to my apparent selfish nature?

Just curious.

My appologies go to those that found that the "*"s in the above paragraph made it hard to read. They were inserted to aid Mr. Walker with his counting.

May peace be with you!

What!

I have to agree with John Walker, and I think it was proven with your last post.
I'm very thankful that you have a job serving the country..but YOU chose it.
You didn't want opinions about which car to buy, just to tell BBS members that you had the money to buy another car (or two).
At the end of the day most people buy cars based on their own feelings.
Finally, you then say that an RSA is valued at more than you want to pay, but you might buy a 968 as well later on!

I wonder what a psychiatrist would make of it all.

Ummm,If you think that most people don't buy cars based on part by many different outside influences then I think you are mistaken. Something had to lead you to Porsche. I started subject to get an idea if either of these cars had problems in areas that I wouldn't know about. If they had then I would have eliminated them. I think that true owner experiences are very valueable in determining whether a car is plagued by some kind of rampant fault or otherwise.
Actually, I do appreciate your last post as unfriendly as it was. It made me realize that it is possible that you may have been stricken with a recent job loss as a result of the economic downturn. Maybe that fate befell someone else that is a regular on the forum. The economy effects us all. If I had made the choice 18 years ago to continue managing a warehouse instead of joining the service I might be vulnerable to layoffs in a non-government job. Joining the service takes a lot of compromise (moreso today than even ten years ago) but stability in pay has always been pretty much a given. Regardless, I do wish you all the best in the current economic climate. I hope you are able to make the most of whatever comes your way. Hopefully things will turn around soon. If my post about the garage full of Porsches was insulting to you then I apologize. It wasn't an elitist display of positive cash flow. I was just dreaming like so many car buffs do. Who wouldn't want a garage full of Porsches?

Canyonlands, my opinion would be that a 968 would be a choice you'd be happier with.

There's a good 968 discussion group here.

Good luck to you.

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Jack Olsen
My Rennlist page • My Pelican Gallery page • My Porsche Owners Gallery page

You can find another helpfull link <a href=http://mentalhelp.net/>here</a>

Best of luck, Sean.

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87 Carrera Cabriolet

I'm doing fine thank you and paying my taxes so that you have a secure job.
Yes, we would all like garage full of Porsches and I have nothing against anyone who has achieved their ambitions. However, the attitude of 'oh, which car shall I buy today' smacks of nothing more than selfishness and the 'I'm better that you' syndrome.

And I do agree the 968 is much better than a C4.

Flat6guy...You're paying your taxes for what? No, I don't think so. Defense would be the last thing congress would let go aside from their own paychecks. You want to bust on service men and women then go ahead but just know that every military member pays their taxes. Federal and for the State in which they call home.

Don't be surprised if this is my last reply in this thread. That is unless someone has something of value to say. Childish little jabs like the last post by Sean don't phase me and are a waste of bandwidth. You can be sure there will be more examples such posted below this message before long.

Thanks to those of you who actually replied with the intention of being helpful.


http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/...s/beerchug.gif
Cheers