Decision: daily driver 911 C4 or 968 w/limited slip diff.?

[canyonlands]

Let me first say that I did post this to the Porsche talk forum but it seems like none of those topics have had much response. If there were a more active "all models" forum I'd certainly try it as posting this question here in bound to have somewhat bias results. Still, do respond and please try to be factual rather than insulting. I get enough of the "lousy water-pumper" comments from 356 and 911 pals.


I'm looking to buy a daily driver. 60 miles a day through a mountain canyon. Lots of fun but also the potential for snowfall. I'm wondering which would be best for this role. I'm looking to spend between $20-$25K on a car in good condition. I like the looks of the 968 and the fuel economy numbers.
Is the C4 worse on gas, requires more or less scheduled maint., better or worse performance wise? I have a pal that restores 356s and also wrenches his own C4. He'd help me with my car and I do wish to do as much of the work as I can whatever car I choose.
Also, I'm wondering which car would do better in a downhill, hard braking situation in a curve during slick conditions. I have ten miles of pre-dawn downhill twisties where deer and raccoon are frequently seen crossing the road. Either car would be wearing Blizzak snow tires during the late fall/early spring months.
Note: do not to factor driving ability into the scenario. Assume that I’ve been driving sports cars for the last 15 years and have autocrossed a 1978 911.
Taking the car’s appearance out of the equation (that one’s up to me), which would you choose and why?
92-95 6spd 968 Cab/Coupe or 89-94 5spd 911 C4 Cab/Coupe?

[Rollins]

With aesthetics removed I'd prolly opt for the 968. These cars grip unbelievably well, and boast superb handling. They have a fair amount of power too. Something like $240. The 911 in general has a reputation for having picky handling. That might be an issue in snow. I would guess the parts would be around the same $$$.

[1.2gees]

Originally posted by canyonlands:
I'm wondering which car would do better in a downhill, hard braking situation in a curve during slick conditions.

Is this a joke?

My personal, -and biased- choice would be a 93 or later 968 coupe. If looks aren't a big concern, also give an S2 a try, they're %85 of the fun for half the cash.
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...
My page over1g@hotmail.com
Porsche owners Gallery.../My 944

[BRAINIAC]

The C4 is an amazing car in the snow. This is no contest. Rear engine and all wheel drive versus front engine rear drive. That's a no-brainer. The C4 is not a tricky car to drive at all. In fact, many 911 purists say it is too benign and fool-proof. It is an understeerer that anyone can drive fast.

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Tyson Schmidt
72 911 Cabriolet
92 C-2 Cabriolet

[wckrause]

I'd vote for the C4 also. 4 wheel drive on snow tires, and a little bit heavier car. You may have trouble finding one in the price range of 20K to 25K though.

I don't have experience in either car, but I do drive a 911 all winter long on snow and ice.

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Bill Krause
'79 911SC Euro
MY PELICAN GALLERY

[john walker's workshop]

OH NO! not another 911 vs 968 topic. save yourself a lot of time and get page upon page of replies by using the search function. there was a huge topic on this a month or so ago. DEJA VU.

[This message has been edited by john walker's workshop (edited 10-01-2001).]

[canyonlands]

Thanks so much Mr. John Walker's but those threads you speak of didn't ask my very specific questions.
After reading the 4th "911 is the only true Porsche" I stopped. Whether or not someone thinks X is the only true whatever means zero to me.

If anyone has qualified and helpful comments regarding *my concerns*, I'd sure welcome them.

Thanks!

[carnut169]

Tyson nailed it. Really can't believe you are even asking... not b/c the whole "911 vs. the world" thing- but rather the 4 wheel drive vs. two in the snow. If you plan to drive a bunch in the snow get the 4 wheel drive car. Hello?

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87 Carrera Cabriolet

[oldE]

Please don't disregard the fun factor. Yes, the C4 would provide some added security and grip on the uphill parts, but there's the sheer fun of a nicely controlled drift in fresh powder. (I ran a 924S for 4 Canadian winters on M&S tires.. What a blast A truely trustworthy car that allowed you to have fun) The question really comes down to the individual's preferance...maybe on the way you feel on a given morning, or the way you feel at the end of a long day at work. If you lived closer, I'd tell you to buy 'em both and leave the keys to whichever you rejected on a given day.
Life is full of tough choces.
Les

[canyonlands]

And hello to you too. I've been driving a BMW 328iS (rear drive) for years over the same roads with no problems. It's amazing what a well balance car with snow tires can go through. I'm usually passing all-drive Audis in fact.
My concerns (as clearly stated) were not restricted to performance in the snow. I only mentioned that the white stuff was possible.
Given the fact that I can/do drive well in the snow how would a 911 C4 handle in a slick downhill sweeper after you apply the brakes, compared to a front engined (balanced) 968? IE., oh Sh*#, a deer! Remember, that often the ability to stop overshadows the ability to go.
For the sake of this thread lets just pretend I said C2 instead of C4.

Cheers!

Originally posted by carnut169:

Tyson nailed it. Really can't believe you are even asking... not b/c the whole "911 vs. the world" thing- but rather the 4 wheel drive vs. two in the snow. If you plan to drive a bunch in the snow get the 4 wheel drive car. Hello?

[Obin Robinson]

canyonlands:

a friend of ours has a 911 C4 and he takes it out once in a while in the snow. he says "instead of just the rear wheels spinning, i have all four wheels spinning and sliding now".

either the 911C4 or the 968 will be good in the snow if you have really good snow tires. i've driven the 924 in the winter with heavy duty Hakkepelita M+S studded tires and it was a blast! though the same car in the winter with "regular" high performance rain tires was not exactly "a blast".

either car will be fine, it's the tire choice that will be paramount! seeing that you would put Blizzaks on the car, you should be good to go. the 968 will be easy to control as it has a very nice ABS system on it. a friend of mine drove a 944S2 with a similar ABS system for over a decade in the snow and he never had a problem even in snow-packed upstate NY blizzards. the 911 C4 will be good too, and the all wheel drive will help. as far as "daily driver" goes, i'm not too familiar with as many firsthand winter experiences in a C4 other than our friend's car.

my thoughs:
try both in the winter or a heavy downpour and buy the one that you feel has the better control.

good luck!

obin

[This message has been edited by Obin Robinson (edited 10-02-2001).]

[wckrause]

Porsche had a road test of several brands of high performance snow tires in their Christophorus (sp?) magazine last year. The tests were done just on their new cars, 996 and boxster, but it's worth looking at. They also have a chart with recomendations for tire/wheel sizes for use with chains.

Although the tests were done in Finland, there weren't any Hakkepelita's tested, but I wouldn't read much into that.

I have Goodyear UltraGrips on my 911, and they work very well, but I can't compare them to any other snow tire. There have been many advances in snow tires in the past few years, with new tread designs, siping, and special rubber compounds. Blizzaks were the first generation of that.

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Bill Krause
'79 911SC Euro
MY PELICAN GALLERY

[kr911]

Originally posted by canyonlands:
I've been driving a BMW 328iS (rear drive) for years over the same roads with no problems. It's amazing what a well balance car with snow tires can go through. I'm usually passing all-drive Audis in fact.

This does not mean that BMW handles better on a wet road. Those Audi drivers were just more careful than you. Blizzaks can make your life little easier in the snow but do not overestimate it. Ice is always bad.

The most important thing however is the low grip of any winter tire on a dry, sunny day. Unless you have a second set of wheels and plan on changing them any given day depending on the weather you will find dry driving on Blizzaks much less enjoyable (much longer braking, poor handling, tire noise, etc).

I personally do not see any Porsche model as a daily driver in a bad weather, especially on twisty, snowy roads (well, maybe 954 Rally could do).
My advise :
For $ 25K, find a nice Audi for the winter.
You'll be passing everything, including C4s and 328's.

By the way, last year Autobild magazine has chosen Goodyear Ultragrips as the best winter tire in Germany, Pirelli Snowsports 210 were just behind and the Nokians dead last.
http://www.autobild.de/archiv/2000/10/41/reifen/ergebnis.php?channel=archiv&center=2000&ASAP=91abf7a7d88dad5b29c8f2b4a4b0cb94




[This message has been edited by kr911 (edited 10-02-2001).]

[91C2wrencher]

Checkout the 911 parts for sale bbs, there is a C4 for sale over there

[canyonlands]

Man...I'm starting to wish I didn't even mention snow at all since that seems to be about all everyone is speaking of. I asked other questions that were more important to me that haven't been addressed at all like the difference in gas mileage and maintenance.
I appreciate the info regarding how the cars handle in snow with proper winter tires though. It's just that I didn't even say that I intended to drive it in the snow and that it was a "possibility". Meaning that I could very well be at work and have the white stuff fall before I get home. Reason enough to get an Audi instead? NOT. I have a Volvo wagon for the days when snow looks certain. And guess what, it's rwd! Even better, no LSD and only one drive wheel! It's been my winter car for years and with the Blizzaks I've never had any problem.
As to how on earth I could be passing AWD cars in my RWD Bimmer with good snow tires...
My guess is I'm just more comfortable in the white stuff, have better tires and really know my car. How many of those A4 Quattro owners do you think puts real snows on for the winter and takes their car out to see what it's limits are? I'm guessing not many. How many know the limits of their regular tires? Now I'd say that the average C4 owner is a bit different. It seems that even here though (from some comments made in these replies)there are still a lot of performance minded drivers that don't use the proper tires in the snow. You can't condemn the winter performance of a car when you've never properly equipped the car to begin with.

Thanks again and if someone could reply with a general idea of which car is more prone to shop time/expense and what the fuel economy figures on the C2 and C4 are typically, I'd appreciate it.

Cheers

[john walker's workshop]

you're a hard guy to please. mileage, 6 cyl vs 4cyl= no brainer
performance= same as above.
handling= 4wd vs 2wd= same as above.
slick downhill windy road, poss snow= all cars basically the same, gotta be careful
service cost=968 slightly cheaper
longevity= C4

[This message has been edited by john walker's workshop (edited 10-02-2001).]

[canyonlands]

Mr. Walker,

I’m not so hard to please when it comes to the simple questions I asked. Did I ask which car had better fuel economy? No. Why do you want to tell me which one does? I want to know what the C4’s is so I can determine if I can live with it with all things factored in.
Performance a no brainer? Why? Does the C4 pull more Gs on the pad? Have quicker acceleration times? I suppose that I’m just supposed to know these things and shouldn’t ask.
Slick downhill winding road; You say all cars basically the same but I was kind of thinking that the 911 would be at a disadvantage with the rear engine. But if you say they’re basically the same.
As to “gotta be careful”…I can only do so much. As my user ID implies, I don’t live in the typical American’s neighborhood. I’ve seen hundreds of deer near or on the road over the last three years. What I should do is expect that I’ll be faced with the scenario that I described and do my best to understand what I’m getting myself into with my new car. The alternative is to slow down to 30 mph (in a 50mph zone) and leave for work 30 minutes earlier. It’s not like I planned on driving recklessly.
You say longevity goes to the C4. Why? More parts avail? Higher popularity and familiarity among Porsche technicians?

I’d love to just go out and drive the cars. I would be here asking many of these questions if I could. I’ve never even seen a 968 in this state and the one Porsche dealer says “we don’t put anything on our lot over five years old.” So much for shopping there for a C4.

[canyonlands]

Mr. Walker,

I’m not so hard to please when it comes to the simple questions I asked. Did I ask which car had better fuel economy? No. Why do you want to tell me which one does? I want to know what the C4’s is so I can determine if I can live with it with all things factored in.
Performance a no brainer? Why? Does the C4 pull more Gs on the pad? Have quicker acceleration times? I suppose that I’m just supposed to know these things and shouldn’t ask.
Slick downhill winding road; You say all cars basically the same but I was kind of thinking that the 911 would be at a disadvantage with the rear engine. But if you say they’re basically the same.
As to “gotta be careful”…I can only do so much. As my user ID implies, I don’t live in the typical American’s neighborhood. I’ve seen hundreds of deer near or on the road over the last three years. What I should do is expect that I’ll be faced with the scenario that I described and do my best to understand what I’m getting myself into with my new car. The alternative is to slow down to 30 mph (in a 50mph zone) and leave for work 30 minutes earlier. It’s not like I planned on driving recklessly.
You say longevity goes to the C4. Why? More parts avail? Higher popularity and familiarity among Porsche technicians?

I’d love to just go out and drive the cars. I would be here asking many of these questions if I could. I’ve never even seen a 968 in this state and the one Porsche dealer says “we don’t put anything on our lot over five years old.” So much for shopping there for a C4.

[john walker's workshop]

i guess you're on your own then. and get some therapy. we're trying to help you and you come across as a jerk. here's a website for you: www.*********.com

[This message has been edited by john walker's workshop (edited 10-03-2001).]

[Z-man]

If you're not concerned about RWD in the snow, then I'd say you should change your choices to C2 or 968, as you stated above.

In that case, in the rain or possible snow, a 968 is probably a better bet, due to the handling characteristics.

HOWEVER, a C4 does have the AWD advantage. Even though it's not the same AWD setup at the Audis/Subarus and SUV's have, it does provide increased traction, which can certainly help in the slippery stuff. Stopping is important. Controlling a vehicle while stopping is just as important.

On the flip side, if you plan on tracking your car, AWD may not be the best choice: I have heard that RWD 911's offer more 'fun' at the track, and can be pushed to the limits more. Don't know if that would be in your plans, though. Of course, the 968 is an excellent track car, with it's 50/50 weight distribution.

Tough questions, canyonlands.
-Z.


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PCA NNJR
My Toy:


[This message has been edited by Z-man (edited 10-04-2001).]