Purchase gone bad, not sure what to do

[RD911T]

Long story.... Two and a half years ago I bought a 71 roller to rebuild into a runner. No motor or tranny, no brakes, no windshield, hood or front bumper. It needed a lot.

Right away I started to look for parts. I knew I wanted a 915 tranny and found one for sale here. We took the transaction to email and I asked a lot of questions about the box because the type number and serial were missing off the flange on the bottom (common). I had him pull the side cover to verify that it was an early tranny with a 7:31 R&P. At some point in the conversation 4 speed came up and I specifically said "if its a 4 speed, I'm out". I still have the emails.

Fast forward a couple years. I got the motor and tranny in and was working on sorting a lot of typical issues. One of those was I couldn't find 5th. Tried a lot of things and then started posting about the problem and someone suggested I might have an early 915 4 speed. I thought no way! Then I started mapping the gears by speed and rpm and it matches exactly with a 74 915 mag case 4 speed! I ran it by a couple experts offline and they are convinced it's a 4 speed.

Here's the PM string in red below where I asked the seller about the issue and suggested he do the right thing. Looking for thoughts on how I've handled this and what the seller should do, if anything.

BTW, some of the conversion info is wrong, but it's going to cost me over $2500 to end up with a 5 speed box if I have a shop do the work. It's been 24 hours since my last PM to him and he's been online here today and has not responded.


Seller,

I bought a 915 tranny from you in Feb of 2013. I had it sent directly to a shop that replaced synchro's and a few other things. Fast forward to now, I have it in my 71 project car with a 2.2L. I'm having trouble getting it to shift into 5th gear. I made a post and got some advice and I'm starting to think it's a 4 speed. I found our email chain from when I bought it and we discussed that it's a 5 speed, not a 4. It's unclear whether you had driven it or not but you made some observations about how it drove, maybe second hand. Anyway, I sent the email to xxxxxx@xxxxxx

Did you actually drive it? Can you confirm it's a 5 speed?

TIA,

Tom


Good mornining Tom,i believe the trans was a 1976 2.7 5 spd.the only 4 spd's back in those days would have been a 930 turbo tran's.

Seller

Dear Seller,

It's a mag case and a 7:31 R&P, so it's probably a 1974 and the shop that rebuilt it confirmed it's a 4 speed based their notes saying they replaced all synchros and only charging for 4. They assumed I knew it was a 4 speed and I never asked them to verify it was a 5 speed. Two years later I finally got it in my project car.
I paid you $1450 for it and spent $1850 on the rebuild. As a 4 speed it was worth about $500 if you could find someone that wanted it. The cheapest thing to do is to convert it to a 5 speed. A nationally know builder said I would need a 3rd gear ($400 used) (move existing to 4th) a 5th gear ($500 used), a 5/Reverse Slider (I found one for $300 used), a new synchro for 5th ($100) and a gasket set ($100). Labor should be about $300 or so as they charged $400 for the first rebuild. That's about $1700 total. I specifically said in our email string that I didn't want it if it was a 4 speed. Tell me what you think the right thing to do is.

Thanks,
Tom


Good morning Tom,i sorry to hear about your problem and i find it odd that after two years you didn't know if you have a 5 spd.or 4 spd. trans.Why didn't the mechanic's tell you sooner if it was a 5/4 spd.Is the transmission shop honest?Best of luck dealing with tran's guy.
Regards Seller

Dear Seller,

The tranny was for my project car. I just got it running in May and thought I had a shift coupler issue that kept it out of 5th gear. I don't know of anyone that would try to shift a tranny that has no oil in it while it is sitting on the floor and not in a car. The shop that rebuilt it is a very reputable St. Louis area shop. They had no prior relationship with me. I sent them a gear box, they went thru it and I paid for the repair and picked it up. They had no reason to assume I didn't know it was a 4 speed. Why didn't you know that it was a 4 speed? I'm willing to take some responsibility for the amount of time that has passed. I also feel you have some responsibility as you sold a 4 speed tranny as a 5 speed. I don't expect you to make me whole at this point, but I think you should do something.

Thanks,

Tom

[DRACO A5OG]

Tom,

I am no attorney but as I recall in law school, I believe statutes of limitations have come and gone. But you could argue it was just recently discovered because you relied on seller to provide you with a 5 speed and was obviously misled or mis-labeled.

Check with the seller's local laws as you would need to take him to court at his county/state of the transaction occurrence.

or lick your wounds and sell the 4 speed and buy a verified 5 speed.

Crazy thought is turbo charge it, but I am just playing now

Jim

[pampadori]

In my opinion, its been a long time since the transaction took place. Too long. From the outside looking in, I think it might be unreasonable for him to buy it back from for the cost you paid or do anything for that matter. If he's a saint, and this was an accident, maybe he can refund you a small portion but i wouldn't hold your breath.

However, I think you might be in the right to post a negative experience review though, but that might not cause him any grief if he's out of the Porsche game now.

You have any attorney friends/family? you might bend their ear about it.

[RD911T]

Originally Posted by pampadori

In my opinion, its been a long time since the transaction took place. Too long. From the outside looking in, I think it might be unreasonable for him to buy it back from for the cost you paid or do anything for that matter. If he's a saint, and this was an accident, maybe he can refund you a small portion but i wouldn't hold your breath.

However, I think you might be in the right to post a negative experience review though, but that might not cause him any grief if he's out of the Porsche game now.

You have any attorney friends/family? you might bend their ear about it.

Not really interested in pursuing legal remedies. I know if if was the other way around, I would do something. I don't expect him to reimburse the money I spent rebuilding the box, but at the very least he sold a box worth maybe $500 for $1450 because he intentionally or unintentionally represented it as something it is not.

He's still in the Porsche game and had at least one item on the first page of the for sale forum today.

[Last911]

When it was rebuilt, the trans shop made no note of it being a 4 speed? (Edit; Don't answer, it's not relevant).

Also, just give him a number you are happy with. 'Hey, refund me $xxx, and I'm happy!'

If he pays, that's fair for both of you. If he doesn't then, leave feedback.

[javadog]

Did you not get a gearbox type and serial number when you were negotiating to buy it?

It sounds like the seller didn't know much about what he had. Not uncommon.

JR

[Matt Monson]

7:31 r/p $500-800 depending on condition.
915 mechsnical speedo tail cone: $250
915 main case $350
915 center case: $200
AZ mainshaft: $400-500
HW 2nd: $250
OR 3rd: $400-500

Tom, what you have there is worth way more than $500.

If the seller was righteous he would kick you a few hundred bucks but after 2 years there's no real moral obligation that he do anything. He's being douchey blaming it on the shop. He should just apologize for his mistake instead of making excuses.

[RD911T]

Originally Posted by javadog

Did you not get a gearbox type and serial number when you were negotiating to buy it?

It sounds like the seller didn't know much about what he had. Not uncommon.

JR

I know it was long, but I noted above that it was missing. I had 30 emails back and forth with him trying to determine exactly what it was.

In one email he said "The trans was always smoothed shifting never any popping out of gear.The only reason i'm selling it going to a G50 removing the torsion bar,going to coil overs and 3.6 turbo"

This clearly implies he drove it, so how did he not know he had a 4 speed?

[eolson]

Just an unbiased opinion, not on anybody's side here, but...

Unfortunately I think you shot yourself in the foot by having it sent directly to a shop for a rebuild and not confirming whether it's a 4/5 speed at that time. Or maybe you did? It's tough to tell, but from the conversation it actually sounds like you had someone confirm it was a 4-speed after you bought it, during the rebuild, which doesn't give you any real leverage. I think your chance for a refund passed when you went ahead with the rebuild and four synchros.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bergo]

too bad, if it was a month after sale, I'd say the nice thing to do would be to offer you a refund, but given it's been over 2 years, I wouldn't expect him to do anything.

[Dpmulvan]

Sorry for your loss

[RD911T]

Originally Posted by eolson

Just an unbiased opinion, not on anybody's side here, but...

Unfortunately I think you shot yourself in the foot by having it sent directly to a shop for a rebuild and not confirming whether it's a 4/5 speed at that time. Or maybe you did? It's tough to tell, but from the conversation it actually sounds like you had someone confirm it was a 4-speed after you bought it, during the rebuild, which doesn't give you any real leverage. I think your chance for a refund passed when you went ahead with the rebuild and four synchros.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I get what you're saying. I did tell him directly during our email convo's that "if it's a 4 speed, I'm out". He replied saying it is a 5 speed. His ad also said 5 speed. I never thought to verify it or ask the shop to verify it. My bad.

[kreeshp]

Based on what you've posted, I agree with the others above - too much time has elapsed between purchase and identification of issues to expect a seller to do anything, regardless of the magnitude of the problem. Onus is on the buyer to immediately check the purchase for flaws/defects/irregularities, etc upon receiving the item.

[javadog]

If he made the comment that it shifted smoothly, I'd think he intentionally mislead you. Hard to test drive a gearbox and not want to check all of the gears... equally hard to miss that it only had 4.

If you didn't get any numbers, there were some potential red flags. A '76 gearbox would have had an electronic speedo sensor, an earlier box would have used a cable drive. That sort of thing...

Probably some fault on both sides, made worse by the time factor.

JR

[Drisump]

The only fault that you may admit to is taking the word of the seller. If you bought a 5 speed, he should've provided a 5 speed. I realize we don't live in a perfect world but it seems there has been purposeful deception, and regardless of anyones perception of the length of time that has elapsed, the original deception is still there. Personally I don't believe a claim for restitution SHOULD be compromised just because two years have elapsed. Apparently most guys on the board don't share this point of view though. Bad luck, I guess like most things air-cooled, 915's have gotten more expensive over that time. Good luck

[matt930s]

I feel for you. I have bought things for future use that turned out to be duds. I just ate it because it was months or years later.

Everything should be tested and dealt with fairly quickly after you receive it to have a leg to stand on.

MattR

[47silver]

the guy must really need the money he should give you the cost of the rebuild and repay you the entire price of the transmission and take it back and sell it as an unmarked 4 speed and take a loss or not.
you bought this in good faith from a fellow aficionado and the seller should be a man, apologize for wasting your time or be ostracized from this community. He is not any different then the car scam guy on another thread.

[sugarwood]

I am on the side of OP. OK, it's been 2 years, so there's no legal obligation. But there is an ethical one, regardless of time elapsed.

It sounds like the seller misrepresented what he is selling. And now he's getting called out on it.
Either he's works with the buyer to rectify, or he should be identified (and banned) so others don't deal with a Pelican seller who blatantly lies.
But, his last email in red was clearly blowing off the seller, so we know what kind of guy he is.

[juanbenae]

Originally Posted by pmax

Once you sent it to another shop for work, the tranny's yours.

what kind of shop had it apart would not realize they had what could be a one of a kind 915 4 speed? id start there with what they saw upon tearing it down to replace the syncros as I believe you state in your open of the thread. maybe im not following along correctly??

[JOHN21BLACK]

I just sold a 7:31 R&P for 1,600. Just part it out.