Brembo Big Reds on a 911SC

[jam]

Okay,

Ive been doing some searches on the board. These questions have been asked a few times I'm sure, but just want to be sure before I make a possible "mistake".

I'm about to purchase a 993tt Brembo Big Red Front brake kit for my '79 911SC. It's an early xmas present, and I'm getting it at a really decent price (that's the main reason I plan to purchase). The kit brings 322x32mm rotors, calipers, hardware, and SC adapter kit. The brakes would go on 17" 993 Cup rims. I'd like to know the following:

1)I'm pretty sure I have to upgrade my MC (I currently have stock). If so, what size MC is needed? What else needs to be upgraded?

2)I've read in the board that upgrading just the front brakes of a car (911) is not recomended. Will I have problems keeping stock brakes/rotors on the rear?

3)Any of you actually have this kind of setup on an SC?

4)Honestly, am I being too optimistic and just wasting my time and money?

Like I said, the price is right (for me), so I really don't want to pass up the opportunity. I guess I could turn around and resell them if they don't work out, but I don't want to open a can of worms either.

Like 99% of the SC owners, I really dont NEED these brakes, but I think they'd really improve the look, and ofcoarse braking of the car....and maybe I can upgrade rears at a later date (as the pocket book allows).

I'd like to hear from any 911SC owners who have this setup.

Thanks!
jam

[dean]

I think you have to upgrade you wheels with big reds. I think you have to run a turbo MC. I don't know if you car run your stock rears with the big reds. I think youve been really good this year and you deserve the whole kit. Too bad you have to pay for it though

[ted]

I plan to do the same with my 69T, right now I have turbo brakes all around. They work just fine, my reasons for upgradeing....

I have some big blacks for the front. For rears I plan to adapt my turbo front calipers to work on the rear. This alone would provide too much rear brake bias so I'll add a bias control for the rears.

Then I'll balance the brake bias and perhaps be able to use my larger rear tires and avoid some of the factory safe front dive bias.

This is all for track driving and would not be required on the street.

Last TT after 10 continous hard laps several of the stock equiped Carreras and older 911 cars cooked their brakes.

At a minimum try Pagid Orange pads with your stock set up.

[crashr]

I would like to upgrade my brakes as well on my 75 but I can't affort the big reds... Is there any other brakes that I could go to that are better than my current stock but will not leave me living in my car (which might not be that bad).

[nostatic]

unless you track your car, why not just new slotted rotors and pads...then spend the rest on something else for the car (SSIs? one of those cloeout Borla muffler? turbo tie rod ends and align/corner balance?)? I know this is a point of contention on the board, but I'm in the "stock brakes rock" camp.

[Bill Verburg]

You only need a 930 m/c(it's 23.81mm for boosted brakes) and 930 rear rotors and 965(964t) rear calipers modified to fit the 911 trailing arm. Here is a pic of the mod exactly as it will look


the bolt holes need to be relocated to match the 3" spacing on the 911 trailing arm

also needed are rear hard lines and flex lines. Ditch the splash plates. For street use Pagid Blue or the new sport Blue or Ferodo DS 2000 or DS 2500. For track use Pagid Orange or Ferodo DS3000. Fresh, quality fluid is always a plus.

If you use the above suggested parts you will have near perfect brakes.

[89911]

You really need to address both axles. If you go with the setup your planing, you might as well not even put any back brakes on your car. You would really have to mess with the bias controls to balance everything out. Listen to Bill, he has a degree in Brakology!

[Randy Webb]

Honestly, you are doing worse than just wasting time and money -- you are making the car perform worse (for street use, at least). The unsprung wt. will be greater with this "upgrade." You would do this only if you are getting so much fade that you can't win races.

Check out the Vehicle Craft 964 caliper kit -- those are light wt. calipers (tho you still need to figure out the wt. of the newer rotors). They have a web site.

Don't fall for the "tailfins on a Cadillac" syndrome -- numerous people have dis-improved a fine piece of German engineering by putting heavy brakes on their 911.

[Bill Verburg]

The 964 calipers are fine calipers, a very minor improvement on 930 calipers, however they impart their maximum benefit when used w/ 930 rotors. When used with 944 rotors they are an improvement over stock SC and will be satisfactory for lighter lower hp cars. For a stock SC the light part isn't there. No brake upgrade is needed for any street Porsche so one assumes that the inquiry is in reference to track oriented info.

Some hard facts;
An aluminum S caliper and matching rotor weigh 17#/ corner w/o pads

A small basic 964 caliper and matching 2 piece 930 rotor weighs 22 # w strut adapter, no pads

A Big Red caliper w/ matching 2 piece 322x32mm rotor weigh 27.5 #, no pads.

A 965 rear caliper w/o pads is 6.5#
A rear M caliper w/o pads is 6#

If you are tracking a car the relatively small sacrifice in weight is easily out weighed by the confidance that the car will repeatedly stop all day/weekend w/o any drama. If you are racing in a stock class you do not have the luxury of bigger brakes but wish that you did.

To the best of my knowledge the Al. metal matrix rotors were a failure and are NLA. It would be wonderful to hear otherwise as they were a great idea. Currently there are Ti metal matrix rotors in development, lets hope that they are, more of a success as the ceramic rotors are not priced for us mortals.

[dean]

Hey Bill

I always enjoy your brake info

Do you have the weight of the 930 calipers with floating rotors?

Just curious

Thanks

[Bill Verburg]

930m calipers w/o pads are ~8.25#, the 2 piece 930 rotors(304x32) w/ al hats are ~15#

all of these weights are from only a few data points(not necessarily weighed by me), more numbers averaged together woud give more reliable data.

[pbs911]

Bill, since this thread is about SC - Big Reds, can you post the weight of the SC brake set up? I am really scratching my head on whether to proceed with a bigger brake set up as well.

[Sergio Meza]

Look into a set of 944 Turbo brake calipers - they take the same brake pads as a 911 Turbo and Carrera rotors. You can also fit 15 inch rims over them.

[Bill Verburg]

Paul,
An SC "A" w/ pads & hard line & w/ fluid weighs ~11#(pads are ~1.2#), the matching rotor is ~8#s

rear "M" w/ pads and hardlines & w/ fluid ~8#(pads are ~1#)
the matching rotor is ~11#

[Randy Webb]

I've also heard that the metal matrix rotors did not work and that the co. went bankrupt.

Altho light, some say the S calipers flex under braking. Note that PAG abandoned them...

The main thing one would want to lighten would be the rotors, not the calipers which do not contribute that much to the total wt. We can all hope for Ti metal matrix, but as to cost I am a bit dubious. The ceramic rotors will come down in price, but that may be something of interest to the next generation of owners who inherit our cars in a few decades....

- Randy

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by crashr
I would like to upgrade my brakes as well on my 75 but I can't affort the big reds... Is there any other brakes that I could go to that are better than my current stock but will not leave me living in my car (which might not be that bad).

A friend of mine tracks his '75 Carrera and doesn't seem to have any problems. '84-89 Carrera brakes and rotors are a cheap upgrade for SC's but I am not sure how well the work on a '75 with it's unboosted brakes.
-Chris

[Bill Verburg]

Chris & crashr, the 84-89 Carrera front caliper and rotors are a nice very reasonably priced up grade for the earlier "A" caliper/rotor combo, neither the pedal feel nor the bias is changed in the least by this mod. The extra meat , especially when cooling ducts and appropriate pads are used works well for the lighter, lower hp cars.

Don't change the rears though as the bias will be upset and a p/v will be needed.

ted, there is really no reason to move the 930 fronts to the rear and then purchase a p/v to compensate. Just leave the 930 rear in place in the back, you will have a nice track biased setup(a bit more front than is usual). The caliper will be appropriate for the width of the rotor and the pad area stays the same.

Sell the fronts to someone else.

[jam]

This board never ceases to amaze me!
Thanks to everyone...special thanks to Bill for the details!

Regards,
jam