1988 3.2 suspension upgrades

[Evans968]

I'm in the final stages of selecting hardware for our '88 911 3.2 used for autoX and DE with weekly highway jaunts for fun. Have searched host's forum for advice and found a lot, but could still really use experienced advice to finalize choices (lot of $ involved in this). Car now has Koni adjustable shocks, BBS 7's and 8's, modular, Proxes RA-1 225-55/16 front, 245-45/16 rear.

Selection so far includes:

Front Elephant camber plate bushings rubber
Front Elephant monoball or Rebel Racing bushings
Front TB Elephant 22 mm hollow
Front/Rear Sway Bars Eibach 24/25 mm or leave stock

Simple Rack spacer bump steer kit or adjustable bump steer kit

Rear Elephant monoball or Elephant polybronze or Rebel bushing kit (involves cutting spring plate and epoxy)
Rear TB Elephant 29 mm hollow

Questions:
1) Are new adjustable spring plates worth the price or do the stock '88 plates have some level of adaptability? Elephant's "quickchange" plates are only listed through '86 models, perhaps indicating '87 and '88 are OK? Also re-using old plates may lead to investment in bushing removal/installation tools (e.g. Elephant).
2) While I am more noise-tolerant than most( fairly loud GHL headers and muffler OK), I have been warned that monoballs transmit much more road noise. Anything you can tell me about this would help. I would like what has been described as significantly improved precision in handling and feel for track and autox with hard plastic or steel bearing bushings. Are Rebel bushings better than or equal to Elephant in handling and road noise?
3) Forum threads for older 911's discuss moving up to G-50 sway bars. Will new Eibach sways be a noticeable improvement for ~$500?

Thanks much.

[Trakrat]

I do know the quickchange plates are NOT compatible with the 87- models due to the longer tube that comes out. I had almost ordered them too and found out last minute that they won't work on my '87.

also, then endlinks are your most important part when looking at sway bars... I've bent a few in the past.

[old man neri]

1) Are new adjustable spring plates worth the price or do the stock '88 plates have some level of adaptability? Elephant's "quickchange" plates are only listed through '86 models, perhaps indicating '87 and '88 are OK? Also re-using old plates may lead to investment in bushing removal/installation tools (e.g. Elephant).

I can't help you with much other than to tell you that I believe spring plates/torsion bar covers for G50s are different than others due to the torsion bars sticking out a lot farther than on 915 transmission cars. That is most likely why the quickchange plates aren't listed for your car. There is some adjustment on your factory spring plates but not much, I forget the number. I think it's in my bentley. As soon as you run out of adjustment you have to reindex. I think there may be other manufacturers that makes some for your car.

I recently removed my old bushings. I didn't have the tool from Elephant. It wasn't hard to do. Just wear a quality respirator so you don't have to inhalethe rubber fumes.

[Tremelune]

The first question to answer is what will fit your car, if anything. It looks like the adjustable splines aren't available for the G50 cars (which is a bummer).

If you only intend to do this once, and you get it right the first time, the adjustable plates offer no value...That said, most people don't get it right the first time, and despite our best research and expectations, it doesn't seem uncommon to switch torsion bars several times over the years as people and places change.

The stock plates give you (I think) a half inch of adjustment while the Elephants will do (I think) 2". This gives you a much better chance of getting it right the first time. I've read threads with very resilient owners, but doing my own 915 car, with the intention of doing it once on a road car, I was very happy to have had the Elephant splines, and if I had the hindsight, I would have bought the quickchange stuff, too. It just ain't worth it to monkey with greased bushings, high-torque trailing arm bolts, and alignment stuff.

[Evans968]

Hey thanks for your experience! Any other experience out there with Rebel Racing bushings, especially spring plate bushings, vs Elephant monoball or polybronze (installation challenges and/or road noise transmitted). My guess is that either will deliver great performance.

Also, how about bump steer kits? Really necessary or modest improvement? BTW, already have Turbo tie rods.

[JackMan]

@Evans, if you are racing, adjustable plates are very helpful. If you are not racing, you can get all the adjustments you need with height and rake with your current plates and by reindexing your torsion bars. Good luck.

You are doing the right thing. Go to the forums and read, get opinions and study before buying parts. Happy to hear you like your car loud. My family can hear me two blocks away when I'm coming home from the office.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Evans968

I'm in the final stages of selecting hardware for our '88 911 3.2 used for autoX and DE with weekly highway jaunts for fun. Have searched host's forum for advice and found a lot, but could still really use experienced advice to finalize choices (lot of $ involved in this). Car now has Koni adjustable shocks, BBS 7's and 8's, modular, Proxes RA-1 225-55/16 front, 245-45/16 rear.

Selection so far includes:

Front Elephant camber plate bushings rubber
Front Elephant monoball or Rebel Racing bushings
Front TB Elephant 22 mm hollow
Front/Rear Sway Bars Eibach 24/25 mm or leave stock

Simple Rack spacer bump steer kit or adjustable bump steer kit

Rear Elephant monoball or Elephant polybronze or Rebel bushing kit (involves cutting spring plate and epoxy)
Rear TB Elephant 29 mm hollow

Questions:
1) Are new adjustable spring plates worth the price or do the stock '88 plates have some level of adaptability? Elephant's "quickchange" plates are only listed through '86 models, perhaps indicating '87 and '88 are OK? Also re-using old plates may lead to investment in bushing removal/installation tools (e.g. Elephant).
2) While I am more noise-tolerant than most( fairly loud GHL headers and muffler OK), I have been warned that monoballs transmit much more road noise. Anything you can tell me about this would help. I would like what has been described as significantly improved precision in handling and feel for track and autox with hard plastic or steel bearing bushings. Are Rebel bushings better than or equal to Elephant in handling and road noise?
3) Forum threads for older 911's discuss moving up to G-50 sway bars. Will new Eibach sways be a noticeable improvement for ~$500?

Thanks much.

You are probably ok w/ the stock adjustable spring plates, The thing that bothers me about most of the aftermarket adjustable spring plates is the intrusiveness of some of the implementations on space that a max wheel/tire fitment might want to use

W/ 245/45 on 8ET10-11, no problem, w/ 9 245/45 ET15 no problem, but w/ 9.5 255-275 real chance of an issue.

One last thing, you are pretty much maximising the suspension & tires, you might want to look into max wheel for those tires, 8ET25-30 front and 9 Et15-12 rear would do that.

[Ryan H]

Originally Posted by Evans968

3) Forum threads for older 911's discuss moving up to G-50 sway bars. Will new Eibach sways be a noticeable improvement for ~$500?
.

Based on the 3 vehicles I have driven with our kit it's a major improvement.

[Tremelune]

Any time you replace a rubber component with a metal component, additional vibration will be transferred across. The degree is what matters, and that's hard to discern and measure.

There are many, many threads on the Elephant polybronze bushings. My summation of what I've read say they don't add too much vibration, do not add any harshness, and provide maximum precision. The main down sides are cost and greasing them periodically (maybe every oil change).

I ended up going with stock rubber on my car, as reducing NVH was my primary concern. Hard-compound bushings seem like the worst of both worlds, and the ones I pulled out of mine squeaked and groaned like crazy, even days after a liberal greasing.

[Evans968]

Ryan, thanks for the feedback. Were any of the 3 911's you have sampled with Eibach sways, were either of them an '88? The reason I ask is that several posts on this forum indicate that the '88's (and maybe '87's) had larger sways that have been used as upgrades for older cars.

Thanks

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Evans968

Ryan, thanks for the feedback. Were any of the 3 911's you have sampled with Eibach sways, were either of them an '88? The reason I ask is that several posts on this forum indicate that the '88's (and maybe '87's) had larger sways that have been used as upgrades for older cars.

Thanks

'87-89 have 22/21mm sways w/ 18.8/25mm t's
I wouldn't change them until you have driven the car w/ your upgrades, then is there is some aspect of the handling that needs attention address that w/ either sways or wheels

[Evans968]

Many thanks Bill. Your point about optimal wheels for my tires was news to me. Makes sense now that I think about it. Am now investigating wheels as well.

How about the bump steer? a) leave stock (now have turbo tie rods), b) simple bump steer kit, c) adjustable bump steer kit (more $)

Also, are new ball joints a likely "while you're in there" item?

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Evans968

Many thanks Bill. Your point about optimal wheels for my tires was news to me. Makes sense now that I think about it. Am now investigating wheels as well.

How about the bump steer? a) leave stock (now have turbo tie rods), b) simple bump steer kit, c) adjustable bump steer kit (more $)

Also, are new ball joints a likely "while you're in there" item?

Wheels and tires have a significant impact on the cars handling envelope right up there w/ t-bars and probably at least as significant as sways.

In 16 your tires are already maxed, so after upgrading t's, maxing wheels is the next step. Even a .5" bump in wheels has a very positive effect on grip.

Bump steer can't be eliminated just minimized at the ride height you use.
For height down to ~150(stock is ~110, so ~40mm lowering) I find that a simple rack spacer suffices. But to be sure you really ought to do a bump sweep.

A 911's bump curve is fairly benign, ie linear and reasonably steep, ideal would be linear and vertical.

here is the bump curve for a late 911 at stock ride height(~110mm). the red line shows where a 40mm lowering puts you on the bump curve. A 19mm rack spacer drops the red line 19mm

[zeusdog]

Originally Posted by Evans968

Will new Eibach sways be a noticeable improvement for ~$500?

Yes, they will. See Sway Bar Upgrade.

[zeusdog]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

Bump steer can't be eliminated just minimized at the ride height you use.
For height down to ~150(stock is ~110, so ~40mm lowering) I find that a simple rack spacer suffices. But to be sure you really ought to do a bump sweep.

A 911's bump curve is fairly benign, ie linear and reasonably steep, ideal would be linear and vertical.

here is the bump curve for a late 911 at stock ride height(~110mm). the red line shows where a 40mm lowering puts you on the bump curve. A 19mm rack spacer drops the red line 19mm

Bill, it looks like the most linear and most vertical portion of the bump curve is the lower part of the curve, implying that bump steer would be minimized by raising the steering rack, even on a car at factory height (108 mm) - or raising the rack on a lowered car by more than the amount it is lowered. With the ride height of my '83 SC around 140 mm, that would suggest raising the rack something like 35-50 mm. Is that even feasible?

Zeusdog

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by zeusdog

Bill, it looks like the most linear and most vertical portion of the bump curve is the lower part of the curve, implying that bump steer would be minimized by raising the steering rack, even on a car at factory height (108 mm) - or raising the rack on a lowered car by more than the amount it is lowered. With the ride height of my '83 SC around 140 mm, that would suggest raising the rack something like 35-50 mm. Is that even feasible?

Zeusdog

Correct, The best part of the bump curve is in the region +/-50mm from stock ride height. The amount the rack can be spaced is limited though, I think the max washer thickness is ~19mm, but I'd have to look it up to be sure.

The other bump step is to raise the spindles, but that introduces it's own issues or to use an o/s on the tierod end

[Trackrash]

My $0.02.

Use ER rubber bushings, the sport hardness. IMO monoballs on the front struts is way over the top. There are hard rubber options or even poly graphite. I use an extra washer on top of my strut's rubber bushing, it reduces movement, but doesn't add harshness.

Do you have a front strut brace?

Not sure why you want hollow torsions, more $ to save a pound or two?

Keep the rear sway, for now. Get the adjustable fronts. If you start running slicks you may need bigger at some point. The larger torsions will make a huge difference in your cars leaning, so you may find that larger sways are not needed. IMO having one that is adjustable will help balance the car's handling.

Do you have the externally adjustable Konis? I have found them great for fine tuning at the track. Then go to full soft on the way home.

FWIW I went with the poly graphite front bushings a number of years ago. At that time there were no other options. Those make the steering VERY sensitive. Great on the AX track, but not so much on the freeway. And they add harshness. They are the "street" hardness BTW.

Have you considered a weight reduction program for your car? That's a great way to increase performance.

[HorstP]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

Correct, The best part of the bump curve is in the region +/-50mm from stock ride height. The amount the rack can be spaced is limited though, I think the max washer thickness is ~19mm, but I'd have to look it up to be sure.

Don't think you are able to fit a 19mm spacer. I had put in a 10mm one and had the feeling that the rack was about to hit the sheet metal above.

[gduke2010]

You should consider turbo tie rods too. Yes hey will make a difference. And replace your ball joints while your at it, I don’t think quick change spring plates are needed for a street set up. More for track only.
.

[gduke2010]

I see you have the turbo tie rods. Good investment.