The 911: Built to a standard, not a price?

[reed930]

I'm not even sure what that phrase means exactly, but I'm pretty sure it applies to the 911. Every time I look at my '86 930, I am amazed at the attention to detail paid by the Porsche engineers.

My friend who has a 993 and I compared our cars over the weekend and it appears that the '89 911 may have been the last model where Porsche built the best car they knew how, and then priced it. There are so many little things on the '86 that were cut out on the 993. Little things like the undercoating on the wheel lip to protect the paint, the way parts are fastened together, the mouldings and trim.

I'm not denying that the later cars are superior to ours in many ways, I just think they lost a bit of their specialness in the process. I think that is even more evident in the 996. Is this a product of the general lowering of "old world" craftsmanship across the board in consumer products or a real shift in Porsche's philosophy?

[masraum]

Now you know why Porsche is currently the most profitable privately owned (or otherwise?) car co in the world. wasn't it in the late 80's or early 90's when they looked at Japanese car manufacturers for ways to streamline, simplify, and make more profitable the manu process?

[cegerer]

Some might say they were built even better in the 60's!

[Superman]

JW had a 993 on the lift once when I visited his shop, so I got to look up her skirt. Scary. I didn't even understand the rear suspension. John was unbolting the front differential, part of the procedure for replacing the clutch.

So, as pretty as I think the 993 is, and as great a performance car as it is, I think I'd rather have a 3.6 in an early shell with body parts that look like a 993, than a real 993. At that point, if the 993 cars were to start lapping me, I'd move toward coilovers, etc. I just like cars to be simple. Like me.

[john_colasante]

I think the quality is still there up to '98. Things start going downhill after that with the introduction of type 996.

As far as the fenderlip rockguard example, the type 993 lip profile does not lend itself to the same treatment as the earlier car, it is a more gradual rolled lip instead of the sharp fold. As far as fasteners and trim I find them to be equal.

Not to be defensive but I'd like to know specific areas where you think the quality of the earlier cars is superior to the 993. Maybe we can come to a conclusion.

[kristian85]

I'm continually reminded of that every time I'm in the '78. It's in perfect condition, and although it has only had adoring and wealthy owners, it is primarily a testament to superior parts quality. The interior alone is significantly better made than a 996's or Boxster's. It loks new inside, and has apparently never had interior refurbishing.

[maxnine11]

built to make a huge profit.....YES!!!!!!! http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=003118 MAX

[TimT]

John,

My take on this might be simply summed as this:

The early (before say 1980) were largely hand assembled cars. the car was moved from station to station via conveyor or such, the assembly at each station was done by hand.

When you have a guy assembling something they can think to themself "this doesnt look good" and fix it so it "looks" good.

As the assembly of Porsches became more robotic. The craftmen that used to look at every step of the assembly process was replaced by a "QA" person, and some fuzzy logic robots..

I had my tranny apart a few weeks ago and the tolerances for the ring and pinion were etched on each piece by hand. A nice touch (it is a '69 tranny). I wonder if the latest 996 tranny has the same hand inscribed info?

Porsches still sets a benchmark regarding quality....

Oh yea whats up with the 914's?

[Jack Olsen]

It's certainly impressed me, recently. I've spent the last week or so disassembling the inessential parts from my 72 tub, and I've yet to even need a drop of penetrating oil -- every bolt and screw just backs on out. And the quality of the switches, electrical connections, etc, is just amazing. These things were built to last.

[TimT]

Jack,

Are you assembling BB11 after I have divulged some top secret east coast early car mods?

[pwd72s]

Gee Jack? You're saying '72 was a good year? Heck, you were barely out of your milk teeth back then...

[Jack Olsen]

I'm 9 years older than the 72, but I'd say it's in much better shape, Paul.

Tim, I decided in favor of a West-Coast-born secret mod to the same part that I like even better. It's the brainchild of Pelicanite Tyson Schmidt, and is going to be executed by Steve Weiner.

[Superman]

Mr. Schmidt's brain works very well, IMO. Expectations for BBII are high. I think it may have been Mr. Schmidt who first coined the Black Beast phrase.

[n8marx]

I think the robotic generalizations stem from Detroit's overuse of the things. Porsches are still built by hand.

I just recently went on a tour through the Stuttgart manufacturing facility. I visited the engine assembly area as well as the main assembly line. In the entire plant there was only one robot. This robot placed the adhesive on the front and rear windscreens and placed them in the cars. Every other operation in the plant was performed by hand. There were lifts and such aiding in the placement of heavy components such as entire C4 drivelines but the bolts were all being placed and turned by a person. I suspect things were different in the body tub fabrication area but we weren't allowed to see that area due to some ongoing prototyping activities.

In some peoples eyes Porsche may have fallen from grace with their more recent product offerings but they are still damn fine cars and are still almost completely built by hand.

[caliber60]

Compare the new Aston Martin to the old Vintage. Mass production vs. handcraft.

[JavaBrewer]

Originally posted by JackOlsen
It's certainly impressed me, recently. I've spent the last week or so disassembling the inessential parts from my 72 tub, and I've yet to even need a drop of penetrating oil -- every bolt and screw just backs on out.

Hey Jack,
I would bet that most CA cars are the same in that regard. I've worked on out of state cars and was suitably horrified at the amount of corrosion and muck I've had to deal with. Many moons ago a friend and I had visions of monster eating VW rabbits. One afternoon we teamed up to change out the front struts on our cars. His was from out of state and mine a Santa Barbara native. Two hour job on mine, DNF on his. Every flapping nut/screw was frozen with rust and muck. He had to soak everything for a day or two and finally got it swapped out with much cursing and bruised limbs.

Can't argue about the 911 quality. Its one of those things you just feel when you sit in the car for the first time. Well, some people anyway, otherwise why would there be so many Pontiacs and Chrylsers on the road.

[911nut]

Originally posted by n8marx
I think the robotic generalizations stem from Detroit's overuse of the things. Porsches are still built by hand.

I work in the auto manufacturing business and I can tell you that the large volume auto manufacturers overseas also use a lot of automation, too.

All cars are assembled by hand for the most part. Robots can be used for certain operations which usually don't require the robot to see, mostly. Therefore, performing assembly operations with a robot requires the parts being assembled to have a smaller dimensional torerance than hand assembled parts. Based on this you could argue that cars assembled with some automation have higher quality components.

The decision to use a robot to assemble a part of the car depends on if savings can be realized by replacing a person with a robot. The number of cars being built is a big part of the savings calculation.

Porsche is really a low-volume producer so they really can't make the investment in a lot of automation pay off. Otherwise they would have a lot more than they do.