Point of reference for cost wanted...
 

My '85 Carrera 3.2 has oils leaks, and apparently not from areas that are easily accessible. They seem to be from around the front of the engine. I've been making do with a drip pan under the car to deal with the inconvenience, and keeping an eye on dipstick levels regularly to avoid issues. The hot oil smell when I park somewhere after driving is starting to bother me, so it's time to finally deal with it.

An engine drop is no doubt required, and I know there's a lot of DIYers here who have R&R'd their engines with little problem. As it would be a one-time affair for me, and given my age and size these days, I'd rather not buy one-time use tools/equipment, and slither around under the car to self teach myself the required techniques. So, I'm thinking of taking it to the dealer or a shop.

The question is can anyone give me a shop-time / dollar cost point of reference so I can compare whatever estimate quotes I get? I know there is going to be unknowns and variables depending upon what they actually find, but a good starting point would be what the minimum I can expect to pay for the engine drop and reinstall. Can someone give me a clue based upon their experience?

Don

I worked at a shop for 10 years and normally once the engine is out it is a good time to do MANY different things. Valve job, reseal, rod bearings, main bearings, intermediate shaft bearings, powder coating the tin, plating the fasteners, clutch, oil lines, displacement increase etc etc etc. Basic engine reseal around $8-10K which should include the massive cleanup of the exhaust pieces and gasket replacement. But it makes no sense to do just the basics, most of our engine jobs ended up costing around $20K and went as high as (can't remember exactly but close to) $27K NOW is a great time to replace whatever parts are still available, make sure they use a reputable machine shop if you plan to do the full deal.

I'd call Walt at Competition Engineering he's in my opinion the best and he will really show you, if you have the chance to visit his shop, what goes in to each engine rebuild. You can give him just your engine to save money OR you can ship him your whole car. ("Competition Engineering Contact Information - Expert Porsche Machining for 46 years") He has a pretty good sized backlog I am sure but it will be worth the wait and give you a chance to let the fun money build up.

This sounds like heavy money to me Casey. Even in the metro NY area, top end engine rebuilds at very reputable shops are less than $15k, assuming all the normal issues are addressed.

I think it could be done for even less, and done well.

Don... if you plan to keep the car, "invest" in it---as is spend all you can while the engine & gearbox is out. Later on you'll be glad you did. $20k is not unreasonable for a comprehensive build including gearbox work & parts.

How many miles on the car?

Sounds like your crank seal might be leaking? The only "while your in there" is to do the clutch...

Why spend more if the car works fine?

Don't get crazy about the while you're in there stuff. In actuality, it doesn't take much to drop one of these engines, so take care of the problem and maybe some of the cheaper items too, but just automatically replacing the clutch etc., just because the engine is out is overkill. Although if you have a bad seal leak, there may be a good chance the oil has contaminated the clutch disc.

Many guys here can drop an engine in a couple hours or less, I think I did one in four and that was with jack stands and being very methodical.

Most competent shops could do it faster, but I would expect to be billed something like 4 hours to remove and another 4 hours to reinstall.
"Leaks from the front of the engine" sounds to me like the "triangle of death" area around the breather cover (do a search) which might be fixable with the engine in the car.

No chance. In my garage at home using floor jacks and engine hoist it's 1 hour out, 1.2 hours back in. At my shop with the lift it's 45 minutes both ways.

Granted, I've done this about 8 times but I'd expect a shop to have WAY more experience than that ;)

Some good advice here. Oil leaks here can seem like rear seal. Not an expensive fix at all.

What's the mileage and history of the engine? I hear the Carrera valve guides on the exhaust side of the head don't last too long.

What I would do given the situation:

1) Put the car on a lift
2) Drain the oil
3) Remove the lower valve covers
4) If you find a broken head stud from (3) above, then:
5a) Start counting your money. If you have a minimum of $10k to put into the engine then out she comes, or
5b) Remove the broken bits that are doing nothing but rattling and button it back up after adjusting the valves
6) You didn't find any broken head studs in (3) above? You lucky dog!
7) Partial engine drop. Doesn't have to come all the way out and you can address the "triangle of death" on the top of the engine near the front.
8) Enjoy the car! after
9) Fill it back up with oil!

I've assisted a 911 Guru with a lift removing and reinstalling a 911 engine and yes, it can be dropped with the gearbox in 45 minutes. Now what the book rate is and what he charges the clients is a whole nother matter.

I thought I would share my recent experience. I just picked my car (1985 Targa) up from having 2nd gear problems fixed.

They removed and reinstalled engine and trans ($630.00)

Replaced: standard synchro teeth, synchro anchor block, synchro energizer, synchro teeth, synchro hub, synchro sleeve, synchro ring, 915 gasket set, double brake band. $1561.78
labor to take completely apart, inspect all components, replace what was needed and reassemble $450.00

replace front and rear struts labor $441.00
parts $770.00

My main point was that the Porsche shop I use charged $630.00 to remove and reinstall motor and trans.

Whoa, all over the map here. Good sound advice from one and all. I'd like to keep getting the input. For what it's worth, the car has 156K on it, and clutch was replaced and synchros replaced at 97K. The clutch was a "while they were in there" deal at the time. The engine runs strong and all sounds tight. I paid $24K for the car in 1998, and got no takers on it when I offered it for sale at $18K last year. It's NOT a dog looking POS, as you can see in my garage photo here. I mention this only because there is NO EFFIN' WAY I"m going to spend $27K to renovate a car that I couldn't sell for $18K, that'd be just freakin' crazy! All I want is to stop smelling burnt oil and having to use a drip pan, not to rebuild a 31 year old car.

I'd make sure all of the usual oil leaks are addressed before you assume it's an engine-out deal. There's the infamous "triangle of death" that is a likely cause of the leaks you describe. Look it up... this type of leak results in oil leaking at the front of the motor and can look like a RMS leak.

The 3.2 motor which has better access to this area than the 3.0. These leaks can be addressed with the engine still in the car and with no special tools or expensive parts. Sure there's a whole host of "while you're in there items" but if you simply replace the "triangle" you can get by for less than a hundred bucks and maybe a couple of skinned knuckles.

Before anyone says you need to drop the motor, I've replaced these seals as well as oil cooler seals on my old 3.2 with the engine in place. It takes some patience and fiddling, but it can be done over a weekend by a first timer.

There's really no special tools needed. How about buying some good beer and hosting an engine drop party ? There are at least a few Pelicanites near Sacramento who knows how to do this and might be game for that.

I read about these past gatherings all the time but they seem to have tapered off as of late for some reason.

$630 to remove the motor and reinstall seems reasonable... Seen what a plumber or electrician charge lately? Its nuts...

For a ferrari add a "0" to that amount and you are in the ball park... ;)

They'll be a line around the corner if you offered that car for $18K this year.
Plenty of people will just drop the engine themselves and have at this engine.
Why not go to the most reputable shop in your area and ask for a quote?

The "while you're in there" idea only makes sense if the cost is reasonable and prempting a situation that will be faced sooner, rather than later. Doing a $25k engine rebuild because you're annoyed with a couple of oil leaks seems excessive to the extreme. I guess I'm in the camp that $25k is huge money and would likely never be recouped upon resale of the OP's car, as Graham says, few reseals require splitting the case, and as for valve guides, there are many cars running very well at +200k miles that haven't required them. If the OP is one of the lucky ones, he may have ten years of fun before needing to face that expense. My car at 105k consumes a a quart every 2500 miles despite a few on the board having needed guides at 60k miles. Eventually every car (if actually used) will need all wear surfaces replaced or refreshed but the question is how far "while you're in there" is reasonable? Cheers

About $6K around here for a valve grind, lower studs and reseal top end.

I had a local shop R&R my engine for oil leaks. The engine R&R cost was about $800. This didn't include parts and labor to fix the issues.

That's my intent, Nick. What I was soliciting was info on what sort of cost I could expect in order to know whether the quote was being unrealistically up-charged. There's a local guy I trust to do anything on it, and he's helped me out over the years, but now that there's nouveaux-riche dudes in a couple nearby upscale communities who have his shop flooded with Ferrari, Lamborghini, and other status cars, his timeline is so far out that, well you get it.

Thank you!

Thank you, this is helpful.

I did the triangle of death while I had the intake off to replace intake gaskets on my 3.2 there was a bunch of rubber bits to replace while i was in there. it was pretty easy to get at everything when the intake was off. I also replaced the oil cooler seals then without dropping the motor. The car was on ramps in the garage for a week. I took my time and cleaned everything I could get to. The only special tools i had to get were wobbly end metric sockets, 10, 12, and 13mm. Did a valve adjustment while I had sheet metal near valve covers off and now I always remove that sheet metal to adjust valves, makes it so much easier.

Thank you all for your input, and even though it may seem like I poo-poo'd some of the expertise and views provided, all your contributions and the experience that they reflect were very much appreciated.
Don

18k?? That's it?? Umm sign me up. With the way the market is now 18k is half the going rate, I'll take it!

All jokes aside, the God of Porsche John Walker has spoken, 6k is well worth it in my opinion. 6k will last you another 150-200k miles, and if there are no plans for selling in your near future, I'd say get it done and drive the hell out of it!

Thanks, this is very useful. With oil on pretty much everything around the forward underside, from all the housings where it was blown around, and drips coming from places other than the source, it's difficult to know where to begin until it's cleaned. That said, even cleaning it is a very difficult thing to do with the car on as high as 18" jackstands. What I wanted to avoid was assuming it was triangle of death stuff, and end up removing things which don't need removing in order to get to it, and thereby inviting more work (and risk) than necessary. I guess I want it all, a car that don't leak, not spending too much money to get it that way, and to enjoy my available time on the golf course, where I belong. I tell ya, life's tough for a cheapskate!

As regards to the first part of your post, thanks for the insight... if the going rate is now $36K, my price just went to $30K, as is. That'd be one God of Porsche estimate less than the going rate, a bargain! (LOL!!!) Seriously, thanks for the input.

Hey,
My car had the standard triangle of death('84 Carerra) leaks. I replaced the gaskets for triangle, breather hose and valve cover. Took me about 3 hours, no engine drop, mostly putzing around, very average hand tools required. The bottom of my motor is now dryer than Death Valley in the heat of summer. All the triangle stuff is very reasonable access, mirror and great lighting helps tons. When replacing fasteners remember to use a torque wrench.

FWIW. I doubt it is the crank/flywheel seal. I would imagine it was replaced when the clutch was done. Those seals will last a long time.

I would be way more concerned about broken head studs, and rubber fuel lines.

Grab a case or 2 of brake clean and go nuts.

Can someone post some links on how to address triangle of death with the engine in the car?
I'd like to read about this. Is this in the Bentley?

Your account makes it sound promising, but I'm going to need an accurate reeding from the PITA-ometer's 1-10 scale as to what constitutes "reasonable access" (with the fan belt being a 1). Considering I'm a 67 year old, 250+lb man, whose back rebels against being bent over for too long, gut requires the car jacked pretty high, and eyes that need to be just the exact distance from something in order to focus, I can tell you this for certain (referencing the photo below)... replacing the sound pad in back of the engine was at about the limit of my awkward location capabilities. What would need to be removed in order to gain access to the "triangle"?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1463538737.jpg

Assuming $100/hr, what kind of Porsche mechanic takes 8 hrs to R&R an engine ?

Ya know, that's pretty much my thinking as well. Isn't the bell housing integral with the transmission, and pretty effectively sealed when installed? How would oil drip out? Also, if it was that rear main seal leaking, why isn't there any clutch slippage/chatter like there was in every other car that I've owned?

I removed my AFM and the fan duct. I also replaced the intake gaskets prior to the triangle attack. I took my time and worked a little, got up stretched and enjoyed the process. Work at a comfortable pace and don't over do it, it will be there tomorrow.

I'll play... I'm not 67 but I've got a bad back and not too much patience. I replaced my triangle on my '88 with the engine in, intake on and in just a couple of hours. On your scale, I'd put it slightly higher in PITA than the engine sound pad swap - maybe .5 points higher on the 1-10 scale. However on the "bang for the buck" scale, it's got to rate near 10.

All I had to remove was my airbox and the MAF to access the triangle area. These parts come off easy and I think it's only a couple of bolts and clamps. I also did the semi-partial engine drop to give more room (I left the AC compressor in place and only dropped the motor a few inches). You'll need a flashlight or two as well a mirror and magnetic pickup tool in case you drop a fastener (you WILL drop a fastener as the area is a bit tight). My car had a leaky thermostat seal and oil breather hose which was obvious once I could get my mirror and flashlight into the area. Once done, no more leaks or smokey heat exchangers!

There are plenty of threads on the partial engine drop and triangle of death. I say go for it as if you can do the sound pad, you can do this fix.

John, My `87 Carrera has ~99K miles on it and has needed valve guides for a while, and maybe some minor oil leak help. To have the work done by someone with your reputation I'd take the drive to Seattle. I bought the car from a guy up there, still have your license plate frame on the front plate although it's in the trunk.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1463599068.jpg

This has been an interesting and helpful thread to follow.

Wash it down to find the leaks and then make a decision. It might be quicker and less frustrating, to drop the engine if the leaks are under all that intake crap.
It is amazing how a small leak can blow around and look like a major problem.

not bad at all, sure done right job too.

Miami is calling you. I'll help you move.