Point of reference for cost wanted...

[donagain1]

My '85 Carrera 3.2 has oils leaks, and apparently not from areas that are easily accessible. They seem to be from around the front of the engine. I've been making do with a drip pan under the car to deal with the inconvenience, and keeping an eye on dipstick levels regularly to avoid issues. The hot oil smell when I park somewhere after driving is starting to bother me, so it's time to finally deal with it.

An engine drop is no doubt required, and I know there's a lot of DIYers here who have R&R'd their engines with little problem. As it would be a one-time affair for me, and given my age and size these days, I'd rather not buy one-time use tools/equipment, and slither around under the car to self teach myself the required techniques. So, I'm thinking of taking it to the dealer or a shop.

The question is can anyone give me a shop-time / dollar cost point of reference so I can compare whatever estimate quotes I get? I know there is going to be unknowns and variables depending upon what they actually find, but a good starting point would be what the minimum I can expect to pay for the engine drop and reinstall. Can someone give me a clue based upon their experience?

Don

[Casey at Pelican Parts]

I worked at a shop for 10 years and normally once the engine is out it is a good time to do MANY different things. Valve job, reseal, rod bearings, main bearings, intermediate shaft bearings, powder coating the tin, plating the fasteners, clutch, oil lines, displacement increase etc etc etc. Basic engine reseal around $8-10K which should include the massive cleanup of the exhaust pieces and gasket replacement. But it makes no sense to do just the basics, most of our engine jobs ended up costing around $20K and went as high as (can't remember exactly but close to) $27K NOW is a great time to replace whatever parts are still available, make sure they use a reputable machine shop if you plan to do the full deal.

I'd call Walt at Competition Engineering he's in my opinion the best and he will really show you, if you have the chance to visit his shop, what goes in to each engine rebuild. You can give him just your engine to save money OR you can ship him your whole car. ("Competition Engineering Contact Information - Expert Porsche Machining for 46 years") He has a pretty good sized backlog I am sure but it will be worth the wait and give you a chance to let the fun money build up.

[NYNick]

This sounds like heavy money to me Casey. Even in the metro NY area, top end engine rebuilds at very reputable shops are less than $15k, assuming all the normal issues are addressed.

I think it could be done for even less, and done well.

[Discseven]

Don... if you plan to keep the car, "invest" in it---as is spend all you can while the engine & gearbox is out. Later on you'll be glad you did. $20k is not unreasonable for a comprehensive build including gearbox work & parts.

How many miles on the car?

[bpu699]

Sounds like your crank seal might be leaking? The only "while your in there" is to do the clutch...

Why spend more if the car works fine?

[rwest]

Don't get crazy about the while you're in there stuff. In actuality, it doesn't take much to drop one of these engines, so take care of the problem and maybe some of the cheaper items too, but just automatically replacing the clutch etc., just because the engine is out is overkill. Although if you have a bad seal leak, there may be a good chance the oil has contaminated the clutch disc.

Many guys here can drop an engine in a couple hours or less, I think I did one in four and that was with jack stands and being very methodical.

[gtc]

Most competent shops could do it faster, but I would expect to be billed something like 4 hours to remove and another 4 hours to reinstall.
"Leaks from the front of the engine" sounds to me like the "triangle of death" area around the breather cover (do a search) which might be fixable with the engine in the car.

[Mehoff]

Originally Posted by gtc

Most competent shops could do it faster, but I would expect to be billed something like 4 hours to remove and another 4 hours to reinstall.
"Leaks from the front of the engine" sounds to me like the "triangle of death" area around the breather cover (do a search) which might be fixable with the engine in the car.

No chance. In my garage at home using floor jacks and engine hoist it's 1 hour out, 1.2 hours back in. At my shop with the lift it's 45 minutes both ways.

Granted, I've done this about 8 times but I'd expect a shop to have WAY more experience than that

[Vin-barrett]

Originally Posted by gtc

"Leaks from the front of the engine" sounds to me like the "triangle of death" area around the breather cover (do a search) which might be fixable with the engine in the car.

Some good advice here. Oil leaks here can seem like rear seal. Not an expensive fix at all.

[SCadaddle]

What's the mileage and history of the engine? I hear the Carrera valve guides on the exhaust side of the head don't last too long.

What I would do given the situation:

1) Put the car on a lift
2) Drain the oil
3) Remove the lower valve covers
4) If you find a broken head stud from (3) above, then:
5a) Start counting your money. If you have a minimum of $10k to put into the engine then out she comes, or
5b) Remove the broken bits that are doing nothing but rattling and button it back up after adjusting the valves
6) You didn't find any broken head studs in (3) above? You lucky dog!
7) Partial engine drop. Doesn't have to come all the way out and you can address the "triangle of death" on the top of the engine near the front.
8) Enjoy the car! after
9) Fill it back up with oil!

I've assisted a 911 Guru with a lift removing and reinstalling a 911 engine and yes, it can be dropped with the gearbox in 45 minutes. Now what the book rate is and what he charges the clients is a whole nother matter.

[jcgranato]

I thought I would share my recent experience. I just picked my car (1985 Targa) up from having 2nd gear problems fixed.

They removed and reinstalled engine and trans ($630.00)

Replaced: standard synchro teeth, synchro anchor block, synchro energizer, synchro teeth, synchro hub, synchro sleeve, synchro ring, 915 gasket set, double brake band. $1561.78
labor to take completely apart, inspect all components, replace what was needed and reassemble $450.00

replace front and rear struts labor $441.00
parts $770.00

My main point was that the Porsche shop I use charged $630.00 to remove and reinstall motor and trans.

[donagain1]

Whoa, all over the map here. Good sound advice from one and all. I'd like to keep getting the input. For what it's worth, the car has 156K on it, and clutch was replaced and synchros replaced at 97K. The clutch was a "while they were in there" deal at the time. The engine runs strong and all sounds tight. I paid $24K for the car in 1998, and got no takers on it when I offered it for sale at $18K last year. It's NOT a dog looking POS, as you can see in my garage photo here. I mention this only because there is NO EFFIN' WAY I"m going to spend $27K to renovate a car that I couldn't sell for $18K, that'd be just freakin' crazy! All I want is to stop smelling burnt oil and having to use a drip pan, not to rebuild a 31 year old car.

[gshiwota]

I'd make sure all of the usual oil leaks are addressed before you assume it's an engine-out deal. There's the infamous "triangle of death" that is a likely cause of the leaks you describe. Look it up... this type of leak results in oil leaking at the front of the motor and can look like a RMS leak.

The 3.2 motor which has better access to this area than the 3.0. These leaks can be addressed with the engine still in the car and with no special tools or expensive parts. Sure there's a whole host of "while you're in there items" but if you simply replace the "triangle" you can get by for less than a hundred bucks and maybe a couple of skinned knuckles.

Before anyone says you need to drop the motor, I've replaced these seals as well as oil cooler seals on my old 3.2 with the engine in place. It takes some patience and fiddling, but it can be done over a weekend by a first timer.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by donagain1

An engine drop is no doubt required, and I know there's a lot of DIYers here who have R&R'd their engines with little problem. As it would be a one-time affair for me, and given my age and size these days, I'd rather not buy one-time use tools/equipment, and slither around under the car to self teach myself the required techniques. So, I'm thinking of taking it to the dealer or a shop.
..
Don

There's really no special tools needed. How about buying some good beer and hosting an engine drop party ? There are at least a few Pelicanites near Sacramento who knows how to do this and might be game for that.

I read about these past gatherings all the time but they seem to have tapered off as of late for some reason.

[bpu699]

Originally Posted by jcgranato

I thought I would share my recent experience. I just picked my car (1985 Targa) up from having 2nd gear problems fixed.

They removed and reinstalled engine and trans ($630.00)

Replaced: standard synchro teeth, synchro anchor block, synchro energizer, synchro teeth, synchro hub, synchro sleeve, synchro ring, 915 gasket set, double brake band. $1561.78
labor to take completely apart, inspect all components, replace what was needed and reassemble $450.00

replace front and rear struts labor $441.00
parts $770.00

My main point was that the Porsche shop I use charged $630.00 to remove and reinstall motor and trans.

$630 to remove the motor and reinstall seems reasonable... Seen what a plumber or electrician charge lately? Its nuts...

For a ferrari add a "0" to that amount and you are in the ball park...

[NYNick]

Originally Posted by donagain1

Whoa, all over the map here. Good sound advice from one and all. I'd like to keep getting the input. For what it's worth, the car has 156K on it, and clutch was replaced and synchros replaced at 97K. The clutch was a "while they were in there" deal at the time. The engine runs strong and all sounds tight. I paid $24K for the car in 1998, and got no takers on it when I offered it for sale at $18K last year. It's NOT a dog looking POS, as you can see in my garage photo here. I mention this only because there is NO EFFIN' WAY I"m going to spend $27K to renovate a car that I couldn't sell for $18K, that'd be just freakin' crazy! All I want is to stop smelling burnt oil and having to use a drip pan, not to rebuild a 31 year old car.

They'll be a line around the corner if you offered that car for $18K this year.
Plenty of people will just drop the engine themselves and have at this engine.
Why not go to the most reputable shop in your area and ask for a quote?

[Drisump]

The "while you're in there" idea only makes sense if the cost is reasonable and prempting a situation that will be faced sooner, rather than later. Doing a $25k engine rebuild because you're annoyed with a couple of oil leaks seems excessive to the extreme. I guess I'm in the camp that $25k is huge money and would likely never be recouped upon resale of the OP's car, as Graham says, few reseals require splitting the case, and as for valve guides, there are many cars running very well at +200k miles that haven't required them. If the OP is one of the lucky ones, he may have ten years of fun before needing to face that expense. My car at 105k consumes a a quart every 2500 miles despite a few on the board having needed guides at 60k miles. Eventually every car (if actually used) will need all wear surfaces replaced or refreshed but the question is how far "while you're in there" is reasonable? Cheers

[john walker's workshop]

About $6K around here for a valve grind, lower studs and reseal top end.

[422flat6]

Originally Posted by jcgranato

They removed and reinstalled engine and trans ($630.00)

I had a local shop R&R my engine for oil leaks. The engine R&R cost was about $800. This didn't include parts and labor to fix the issues.

[donagain1]

Originally Posted by NYNick

They'll be a line around the corner if you offered that car for $18K this year.
Plenty of people will just drop the engine themselves and have at this engine.
Why not go to the most reputable shop in your area and ask for a quote?

That's my intent, Nick. What I was soliciting was info on what sort of cost I could expect in order to know whether the quote was being unrealistically up-charged. There's a local guy I trust to do anything on it, and he's helped me out over the years, but now that there's nouveaux-riche dudes in a couple nearby upscale communities who have his shop flooded with Ferrari, Lamborghini, and other status cars, his timeline is so far out that, well you get it.