More vs. less tire grip and fun-to-drive factor

[Otter74]

My car is going to be due for, at the least, new rear tires this spring or summer. The tires on it now are a set of Dunlop SP Sport Maxx summer tires that are 7 or 8 years old or so, the usual 205/55-16 in front and 225/50-16 in the rear.

This has had me thinking about what I want to put on there, and how I want the car to feel.

My car has stock torsion bars, Bilsteins in the rear and (??) in the front (see other thread), ER polybronze bushings, turbo tie rod ends, a front brace, Rennline monoballs, and the car is lowered and corner balanced. It feels terrific. There is a good chance i will take the car to a track event this year, just for the opportunity to become more familiar with the car's handling nearer its limits and at higher speeds, but this is always going to be a street car for me. i drive it in all non-snow/ice weather, so rain performance is important to me. I've seen some of the threads here about tire choices, so I have some ideas on what I might want to replace it with, particularly if I stick with summer tires.

The car's setup makes it a natural for summer-only tires with a lot of grip, but how do SCs with 16" tires feel with a lower-grip tire for street driving? Does the car feel significantly different in spirited street driving with high-performance all-seasons vs. summers? Do you think one is more enjoyable than the other? If so, why? Does the near-limit handling balance change?

If I've got something like, say, a Miata, or my Sentra SE-R with realy sticky tires, it is fun to throw around, and fast around corners, but not necessarily more fun than a car with less grip, particularly if the car is not very highly powered. The SC, on the other hand, is fairly highly powered. I might enjoy it if the car felt more tossable, as long as it did not bias the near-limit balance of the car towards more oversteer.

To draw a stronger contrast, I could compare two 911s with identical SC powertrains - one my SC, and the other a narrow-body midyear with equal-width 15" tires front and rear.

Curious to know what y'all's experience is.

[porterdog]

I went with a higher-end touring tire on my C4 for exactly that reason. The car is capable of tremendous grip, and sticky tires would raise the limits high enough that exploring them on the street would be felonious. Better treadwear, and quieter when sliding as well are gravy.

More fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow, as they say.

$0.02

[enzoducoing]

Hello
I am a novice driver at the track. I have been doing as much track days as I can because of the instruction involved, I have no plans to race just to learn to drive my cars to and beyond their limits. I have both a 3.8 narrow bodied 911 with 195/65/15 Potenza 760Sports (hard compound) and a 3.8 wide-bodied RSR with (soft compound)PS2 Michelin 225 fronts and 275 rears. Both cars are very well set up and balanced. Although I love the fantastic grip on the RSR, the most fun car is the narrow body because it looses grip very predictably in lower speeds and this has allowed me to learn to slide it and control the kick back and throttle for unlimited amounts of pure fun. I am sure that with more practice I could learn to do the same on the RSR but it is certainly easier to do and practice in the narrow car. Also by learning this limits I have been cutting my lap times by a great margin whenever I drive full speed whilst trying to avoid slippage at all cost. So to answer your question, yes narrow cars are more fun if not faster and harder tires will be easier to predict than super sticky soft compounds. I guess it all depends at what level of expertise you currently are and how familiarized you can get with your car's set up. As I said this is from a novice point of view.

[Otter74]

Porterdog, what tires do you have on your C4?

I certainly agree with you about driving slow cars fast - one of my more enjoyable drives was in a 1.3L Renault Clio, thrashing it around country highways in Poland.

[Trackrash]

As a point of reference, I am running Toyo RA-1s as my street and DE tire.

When warmed up on the track they are great. They stick like bubble gum.

However, on a cold damp day around town, they can be dangerous. The colder the temperature the less grip they have. Since I only drive my car on the street when the sun is out and I understand my tires limits I am good.

That said, many of the new tires available today have outstanding grip and predicable behavior, making them ideal for a dual purpose car.

There have been several threads recently about tires on this BBS. Tirerack also has feedback and reviews on the tires they carry.

Here is a comparison of Toyo performance tires. https://www.toyotires.com/proxes-tires?&campaignid=283243786&adgroupid=8525815306&adposition=1t2&network=g&creative=51218407906&keyword=proxes%20%2Bra%20%2B1&gclid=CLTA-YbTzcsCFU1gfgodAekC0A

[Otter74]

Purely on the merits of summer vs. all-season performance tires, I have a slight preference for all-seasons, as while I do not drive my car in snow, I will drive it when it is cold (say, 40 or 35 F), and I don't mind the typically better treadwear. I have driven summer-only tires in light snow (on a Chrysler Sebring, of all things), and...never again. Vividly remember sliding through a red light at 15mph because I couldn't stop.

OTOH if I just put a new set of what the car has on, I can replace the rears only and save a chunk of money - the fronts are fine for a while. Not sure it's a great idea to have mismatched tires on the car - I have read they don't really like that, so to speak.

I do care more about predictable behavior than ultimate grip. But I do like the sharp turn-in that my tires and alignment give.

[Retro]

I just went through this with my 84 M491. I did 17" Braid, 9 & 10". It had Toyo R888 on it. Great grip, VERY noisy, and sucks in any puddling of rain. I use this 911 to travel from Oregon to Calif events. So I wanted a good summer performance tires. I went with Continental, still made in Germany, proper for the 911. Its the Extreme DW, they were only $560 for all four in 17". Ofcourse they feel a little mushy in hard conering due to taller, softer side wall. But they are a very nice compromise, and look great on the 911.

Stephen Retrotech: Classic and vintage Porsche cars, accessories and Porsche parts

[Retro]

I just went through this with my 84 M491. I did 17" Braid, 9 & 10". It had Toyo R888 on it. Great grip, VERY noisy, and sucks in any puddling of rain. I use this 911 to travel from Oregon to Calif events. So I wanted a good summer performance tires. I went with Continental, still made in Germany, proper for the 911. Its the Extreme DW, they were only $560 for all four in 17". Ofcourse they feel a little mushy in hard conering due to taller, softer side wall. But they are a very nice compromise, and look great on the 911.

Stephen Retrotech: Classic and vintage Porsche cars, accessories and Porsche parts

[reddogmotrsprts]

I can sympathize with choosing fun over ultimate performance, but remember that it's not just about sliding sideways -- reducing tire performance reduces straight line braking performance as well.

I feel that using a narrow wheel/tire combination yields a better overall drive (less weight, more response, less sidewall rollover) without reducing stopping performance to the same degree.

I do like the Conti Extreme DW, but make no mistake when attempting to compare stickiness to sticky tires -- it's very slippery compared to an R comp; more so that it might seem from reviews on, say, Tire Rack. They aren't in the same galaxy.

[Charles Freeborn]

I got a second set of wheels for track days and run "extreme summer" tires on them. Considering dot slicks next round. Have all seasons on the driver rims that I also use on rain days at the track. Changing wheels takes me 10 minutes. Get steel lug nuts if you don't already have them.

[joe payne]

I like my Dunlop Direzza Z2's, but they may only last 5,000 miles or so. They replaced Kumho Ecsta MX's. Both tires will get you through wet conditions, but they really shine when it's dry.
They're a far cry from the original P7's that were on the car back in 1990 when I purchased it. In my case, the sticky tire makes more sense because I mainly drive canyons and twisties. Also, I have another car for the daily grind.

[Reiver]

Extreme Summer all the way....in the Phx area that's year round...only freezes in the dead of night.
'Play tires' would be fun but not for every day driving/stopping.
I've a friend with a 68' 912 with a 3.8 and skinny tires....it's a hoot...then again he has over 100 cars.
Me, the one 911.

[porterdog]

Originally Posted by Otter74

Porterdog, what tires do you have on your C4?

Bridgestone RE970AS.

[crashmy911]

Dunlap direzzas are great tires. Almost the grip of r888's

[Cajundaddy]

All tires are a tradeoff and every driver will have a slightly different mix they prefer.

My car is a weekend joyride and DE track tool. Essentially I never drive it below 40F and I don't put a lot of miles on the car so long tread life is less important. For me max wet/dry grip and the ability to hold up under the heat of continuous lapping are important. This rules out A/S tires and makes extreme performance summer look like a winner. I have RE-11s on there now and am very satisfied.

If I lived in an area with regular temps below 40F, needed longer tread life, and didn't do track duty Conti DWS would be high on my list. They are designed for a lower heat range and are disappointing on the track, but shine in mixed weather conditions on the street.

There are dozens of other tires that lie somewhere between these two but I consider contact patch to be the most important part of the car so I would be fairly choosy in getting the right class of tire for my needs. A/S tires are competent in all weather and I have them on all our other cars. On the Porsche they just feel like banana peels in cornering, accident avoidance, and stopping distance compared with an extreme performance summer tire at operating temp.

[onewhippedpuppy]

I just ordered RE11s for my street-only SC, and had them on my '88 Targa. I found them to be quiet, comfortable, very good in the rain, and acceptable for normal street driving even at freezing temps. Steering response is exceptional, which is why I just ordered them for my nice-day only SC in stock sizes. I do have RE970AS on my RX7 as it is more of a daily driver and I could potentially be caught in light snow, they are great for an AS.

Personally I think the biggest thing you can do to maintain the stock responsiveness is to stick with OEM sizes. Going up on tire size/width will probably have a bigger impact on feel than simply changing brands, unless you are going from totally stock ancient tires to new R-compounds.

[Charles Freeborn]

Originally Posted by crashmy911

Dunlap direzzas are great tires. Almost the grip of r888's

That's what I run on track. Don't like the cold though and get greasy when temps go above 90 ambient.

[rfloz]

There's no such thing as too rich, too skinny or too much grip.

I lost out on the first two, I'll "stick" with the third.

Since 1987, I've had three different autocross cars and drove them all on the street with R tires. The single time I had an issue was on a New Years Day ride over Angeles Crest. Black ice has a high pucker factor.

[Quinlan]

I think the idea of less grip for the track is an attractive one. It allows you to "toss" the car and drive at the limit at lower speeds, with presumably lower consequences if you mess up. The old adage of it being more fun to drive a slow car fast.
On the other hand, on the street I would go with maximum grip (but avoiding the trade-offs associated with an R Compound tire). If you ever NEED the grip on the street, it would be a shame to have to say "I could have avoided the accident, but I wanted to have some fun"...

[Duc Hunter]

I love this guys....his reviews are very informative and fun. He has amazing driving/car control skills, and the cinematography is stunning. Top it all off, he is a Porsche 911 nut! Here is his take on the subject, for your review and enjoyment!


http://youtu.be/HPh90yNX-mY

I cannot for the LIFE of me figure out how to embed a YouTube video. Sorry!