Bent Something (oops)

[Superman]

Okay, Superman made a little offroad excursion last night and some suspension parts moved. You might say I pulled a "Jack." Road was slick, alcohol was involved and poor judgement. The trooper was pretty helpful, everything's okay except perhaps the car.

The adjusting cap at the back of the left front torsion bar is pushed back so that the adjusting screw is off the little pad it's supposed to contact. Instead it wants to contact the aluminum cross beam. The front torsion bar bracket is fine, I think, and it even looks like the cross beam is in the same place. The bolt holding all this on seems straight, but I have not disassembled yet. Tempted to remove the a-arm, but perhaps should start with the adjusting cap thing. It seems the car bottomed out in such a way as to push the a-arm backwards. About a third of an inch.

Well...it's a car and cars can be fixed. I still don't think I bent the tub or a mounting point, but we'll see. Glad I'm okay, but feel like .

[carreradpt]

Super, sorry to hear of your little excursion. Glad that you are OK. How's the car? Have you gotten a good look at the damage? Hopefully its not quite in the J.O. category. Hope that won't put a damper on your holidays!

[Superman]

Thx. I'm not sure what's damaged but I don't think it's tat bad. the a-arm has moved 3/16" rearward. But the distance between the front torsion mount and the aluminum cross beam is not changed. There is a 3/16" gap at the front bushing, and the distance is taken up in two places at the rear of the a-arm. The bushing there is mashed a sixteenth or two and the rest of the distance is my concern. The rearward a-arm bracket that sits inside the cross beam, and through which the mounting bolt goes, has moved a sixteenth or two rearward. I guess I'm not sure how it can move relative to the crossbeam, even this little bit, since they are held by the same bolt.

I have questions. It looks like a special tool is necessary to remove the big castellated nut at the base of the strut/a-arm joint. True?

Can I sidestep this by removing the nut and wedge bolt that retains the ball joint, and just slip the ball joint down out of the strut?

What the heck keeps the end cap, and even the entire torsion bar from sliding rearwards out of its home? Instructions say that, once you have backed the adjusting bolt out of that end cap, the cap just slides off the end of the torsion bar. And it does. And then the torsion bar can just be pulled out. So what, besides just that adjusting bolt, keeps the cap on and the torsion bar held forward?

[carreradpt]

Super, I was looking at the Bentley for the carreras and it has some great diagrams of the a-arms and the front suspension. The torsion bar looks to be secured at the front by the control arm and the control arm mounting bracket. the rear by the t-bar retaining cap and adjusting bolt and thats it.
Heres what it says for removing the strut if you have to and the control arm. Hopefully this is what you are looking for. The following should allow the strut assembly to be removed (provided you loosened the top. Remove cotter pin from tie rod nut and remove castle nut. Using special tool VW 267 a or equivalent, separate tie rod from steering arm. remove ball joint wedge bolt. carefully pry out or tap on control arm to push ball joint down out of strut housing. (It also looks like that strut cap is torqued to 184lbs.)
To remove the front control arm remove cotter pin from ball joint lock plate. Remove slotted round nut from ball joint using porsche special tool # P280b.
Hope this helps Super. DT

[Superman]

Thanks, Dan, it does help. My SC Bentley does not seem to have this discussion. Sounds like I may be able to avoid dealing with that goofy nut at the bottom of the strut. And I think you're saying what I'm figuring out. That the only thing that retains that rear cap is the adjusting bolt which goes through a hole in the aluminum crossmember and is therefore captive. That's a surprizing design. And disappointing too, since my adjusting bolt was pushed backwards so far that it broke out of the crossmember. So now I'm thinking I need a crossmember, or a good welder.

[RoninLB]

I kinda remember that when I did front end work that I had to re-orient the adjuster.. I raised the car on one side, which took pressure off the torsion bar, and slid the adjuster off......Ron

[Cornpanzer]

Originally posted by Superman
Road was slick, alcohol was involved and poor judgement. The trooper was pretty helpful, everything's okay except perhaps the car.

Not to sound preachy, but as someone who lost a good friend to a drunk driver I feel that 1) you got off easy....someone could have died and 2) I hope you dont tell everyone you meet that you had an accident because of being impared. Some people dont take that very well.....especially those of us who have had a friend literally run over by someone who has been drinking.

[Superman]

I certainly accept that advice. That some folks are sensitive about that. I'll keep a lower profile. I already know that I was very lucky, and thankful for that. According to the trooper's device, my breath was not near the 'intoxicated' level, but I don't offer that as an excuse. I agree I was impaired. And stupid. One more excuse: The curve was unfamiliar, sharp, wet and occurring over a sharp rize. So, as the car cleared the rise and was lighter than on a flat surface, the rear kicked out. the trooper apparently had spent all day handling cars in the ditch. Apparently even sober people do this.

And I am now thinking that I got lucky again. I am thinking that the adjusting bolt is the only thing that keeps that end cap on the torsion bar. The bolt goes through a hole in the cross member. This event broke my adjusting bolt backward, out of its little cage. In other words, when I raised the car, I did not need to remove the bolt to remove the adjusing cap. I just reached in and the cap slid off. Unless I misunderstand this suspension, that cap is actually holding the car up. Had the cap finished sliding off, my left front suspension would have collapsed. The accident occurred about 5 miles from my house so I chose to drive her home.

[Superman]

Okay, I am now in receipt of some advice that the big nut at the bottom of the strut can potentially be removed with something like a big pipe wrench or something. Who has had luck with this? I think this nut is like a cylinder, and not real thick, so I'd think it would be important to not squeeze it while trying to turn. Kinda like opening those twistoff beer caps. Squeeze them too tight and they won't budge.

Of course, I would also need to reinstall the thing, to a proper torque, so theoretically I need the special tool. Perhaps one of my PNW chums will produce one.

[PORSHIN]

Hey Super,
There are all kinds of lessons for us to learn out there. Sometimes we just get a stern warning and sometimes, if we don't heed those warnings, we get a much more profound lesson. Being the smart guy I think you are, I think you got the message. Most of us are fun-loving people so we can relate! If it turns out you need any parts for your left front I have all the L/F suspension components from my Carrera. The R/F control arm and steering knuckle was damaged but everything on the L/F is okay. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think most of those parts will interchange between an SC and a Carrera.
Rob

[Jack Olsen]

Sorry to hear about the incident. It seems there's been a rash of them, lately (and apparently, I've become the benchmark for self-induced 911 collisions. ).

Glad to hear that you're okay. All the other stuff is just an excuse to get to know your car a little better.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by Superman
the big nut at the bottom of the strut can potentially be removed with something like a big pipe wrench

that's what I did with the control arm removed.. might be a PIA installed.. those M14 threads/bolt are big torque.. some guys cut them off and buy a new one.. I tightened it w/a pipe wrench to over 150 ft. lbs. then some Por-15 to cover scratches.. the proper tool will probably self destruct if used for removal........Ron

[Bill Douglas]

Super, I do hope the car comes out alright and doesn't end up costing lots of money.

And, I think it was big of you to sacrifice the Porsche to save the life of that dog that ran out on the road.

[PORSHIN]

I hope my message wasn't misinterpreted. I didn't mean to lecture Jim about drinking and driving. I don't think he was drunk either! My point is, anything can happen at any time and if does after you drank a beer, that is what they will blame it on. Precisely my point Noah. Drunk driving is a terrible thing but if one goes out to dinner and has a drink then is involved in some kind of accident or altercation, the first thing everyone will say is that alchohol was involved. That can destroy someone's life but if law enforcement says it, it is taken as fact. Luckily Jim had an honest and understanding officer who was fair about it. If, on the other side of the coin , one of those Porsche hater cops had arrived, it might be a different story!
Rob

[island911]

Super- sound like a good wake-up call (for all of us). .. not too much damage; just enough too reset the respect level for how quickly things can happen.
It's good to hear you're quickly regaining control of the situation.
(and it should go w/o saying; but, glad your okay.)

[911pcars]

I'm not passing judgement on anyone but I believe a person can be "impaired" and remain legally not under the influence. Many people react differently to alcohol than others. I'm not sure the word "tolerance" is an apt description as it implies there is no effect until a certain threshold. The .10 rule, or is it .08? (in CA anyways) is an arbitrary number that only determines whether a driver is legally under the influence.

Drive safely,
Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

[island911]

Originally posted by PORSHIN
. . .My point is, anything can happen at any time and if does after you drank a beer, that is what they will blame it on. Precisely my point Noah. Drunk driving is a terrible thing but if one goes out to dinner and has a drink then is involved in some kind of accident or altercation, the first thing everyone will say is that alchohol was involved. That can destroy someone's life . . .

No kidding. These MADD people try to come-off as "couragously" telling the world about the downside of drinking and driving. (as if DD is a tough thing to be against, or people need to have their eyes opened)

If anything, these MADD people need to have their eyes opened.
Most accidents happen due to a combination of sleepiness, intoxication, inattentiveness, and DWRTIQ (Driving with a Room Temperature IQ)

It doesn't take much "driver involvement" to safely get from point A to B. . . .even with one of the above limitation.
However, if that one is DWI --look out. The "DrunK" is the easiest political pinyata next to the "Dead-Beat-Dad."

The .10 , or .08 rule *is* an arbitrary number. it keeps getting lower, as the political correct try to one-up each other. It's also good for the police dept's that get to impound and confiscate personal property for resale.

It's funny to see "Alcohol Limit" street signs . . . as if there is an Alcoholometer on you dash telling you your absorbtion rate is too high.

(BTW: I have never had any personal "drinking/driving issues" -- these are just my observations of the over-simlplification of a problem set, resulting in the hyper-demonizing of the "Drunk-Driver.")

[Superman]

Quite a few true statements here. Cornpanzer is right, I am a great guy . but I'd have to disagree with one sentiment. Though I was comfortably under the legal limit (.08), there is no question in my mind, or the minds of the researchers, that impairment begins at virtually any small BAC level. Like many of you, I have a beer now and then, and drive home. But I have heard of decisions to not drive at all after any alcohol consumption and I think there is wisdom in that. More than in me, I guess.

And I'd like it if at least one of you might hear this: Really our Porsches are just the wrong car to be driving home from a bar. The right car would be a 1963 Cadillac with a 4-cylinder engine. I'm suggesting extreme care (as opposed to just great care) in driving your Porsches home after happy hour.

Now, back to the fun. Jack's right. Indeed, I'll confess again to a certain macabre pleasure at dealing with car-nage. And I am certainly learning about my front suspension. I think I might be able to remove the cross member without removing the a-arms. That might mean the struts come down or loose or something, but this would delay my struggle with that funcky big nut. I know I have a broken cross member. Perhaps it can be repaired. It certainly can be replaced. Again, the tub seems straight. Whew! I'm a lucky man. Did any of you understand how lucky I was? The adjusting screw and cap was pushed clear out of its cage. The top of the screw was barely engaging the cross member, and the whole cap was ready to fall off. That would have collapsed my left front suspension. The drive home was hilly and curvy and wet with lots of trees. I'm a lucky man. And witty and good looking, smart, stuff like that.

[carreradpt]

Allright Super, how are you going to approach getting that thing off? And man are you lucky that thing didn't collapse. That would have really sucked!

[Superman]

I'm tempted to remove the wedge bolt thing and separate the strut from the a-arm by disconnecting the ball joint. That may permit me to move the a-arm forward enough to remove it. Or, if I can lower both a-arms a bit, perhaps the cross member will come out rearward. Still wondering if its possible to remove the a-arms and cross member without removing that 'special tool' nut.