Noob suspension questions

[Nathans_Dad]

Hey all,

I finally have the money together to do a suspension refresh/upgrade on my 84 Carrera. A couple simple questions.

I plan to use elephant racing for parts, probably going for one of the Street Performance packages although I'm still open to the Sport Restoration ones as well. My car is just a weekend driver, I do not DE it at this point but that is something I might be interested in doing later.

I'd like to do things while being very budget conscious so I want to reuse parts if possible or keep parts that don't need to be replaced. With that in mind I have two questions. First is there a specific way to tell how old the shocks are or when they were installed? I looked through all my paperwork and I don't see any clues. I've owned the car for just over 5 years now so I'm guessing they are 7-8 years old at least. They are Bilstein sport on the front and HD on the rear as I recall. I'm thinking it is going to be better to just replace them but I wanted to make sure. Also, I already have a strut brace installed on the car, do I need the new one from Elephant Racing or is it reasonable to just use the one I have? The brace I have is a single bar whereas the elephant racing one is the triangle type.

Lastly, I have minimal experience working on the car, I have done the following: rebuilt the shifter and adjusted linkage, replaced hood and decklid shocks, replaced oil return tubes and basic maintenance like replacing trans fluid, oil, etc. Is it too much to bite off to do the suspension work myself? I do have Mayo Performance about 20 minutes away and plan to use them for bushing pressing, etc and they could bail me out in a pinch I guess if I get too overwhelmed.

Thanks in advance.

[RichardNew]

I have spent as much money as an idiot can on suspension. Most of it was wasted money.

Stay with the stock parts as much as you can. Most of the aftermarket parts are simply a way to spend money for no improvement. I know.

The Bilsteins can be rebuilt for a lot less money than new ones cost. Bilstein has done several sets of shocks for me. Here's the web site.

You definitely want Ed Mayo to go over your car. Listen to him. Believe him.

Sit down with Ed and work out a budget with him. I would do that before I do anything to the car.


Derek Bell Testing My 911

Richard Newton
Car Tech Ideas

[Sboxin]

Since you are going to work with Elephant you can send the shocks to them to test and rebuild if necessary. If the shocks are not leaking or not noisy they may be fine for a long time.

Keep the strut brace you have - it's fine for what you do with the car or even DE.

There are a few upgrades you might discuss with Elephant - Turbo tie rods, bump steer kit . . .

Good thinking on DIY with back up shop near by . . .

Regards,

[GH85Carrera]

The front suspension is easy. Take pictures, lots of pictures. On my 85 the old rubber bushings were so oval that the torsion bars were rubbing. They needed to be replaced. I only went up one size front and rear. I drive my car on the street and even drove a 5,400 mile road trip in July of this year. My wife does not complain about a rough ride. I had OEM Boge shocks so I went with the new Bilstiens. Do the Turbo tie rods. You old ones are likely shot. Get the suspension parts powder coated.

The only challenge I had at all was getting the front roll bar back in place. It is a mystery why it is so easy to drop off but I needed a pet gorilla to get the sway bar back into place.

The rear suspension is more challenging, but still doable.

Before I found Pelican I would have never dreamed of doing the suspension rebuild by myself. After reading a few dozen threads about it and seeing accountants dentists and other non professional mechanics do it, it was game on.

[steely]

I'm in Glen's corner - based on your stated accomplishments, I think you could successfully tackle the front and rear suspension yourself with minimal professional help.
I dropped off the control arms and new ball joints to my local indy and asked that they torque the BJ onto the arms which I picked up later. I also was challenged with getting the belly pan on due to the front stabilizer bar mounting bolts, so I asked for help there when I dropped it off for a FE alignment.

I was successful with the rear a year or so later, and again, I dropped it off for it's final height adjustment for good measure.

I had the front parts powder coated and the rear hardware re-plated professionally during the process.

You'll get a much better feel if/as you do your research as to how far you want to go, and you can always ask here or take advantage of your friends at Mayo. Good luck!

[Nathans_Dad]

So I spoke with the guys over at Mayo over the phone. I plan to call Elephant Racing as well for their input. The guy at Mayo recommended rubber bushings all around and seemed to feel I should stay away from any solid bushings. He also said my Bilstein shocks/struts front and rear should be fine at least to start. I can keep my sway bar that is already on the car.

So with doing new bushings all around, upgrading torsion bars to 21/28 mm (what comes with the Sport Resto 1 package on Elephant), OEM ball joints, bump steer kit, and turbo tie rods it's around $2100 before plating/powder coating.

This is within budget, sound reasonable???

[Techno Duck]

Sounds very reasonable! The hardest part of this I think is knowing when not to go overboard. I still haven't had time to install, but I went rubber everything from Elephant. I plan to have everything replated / powder coated as needed.

[gtc]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

So I spoke with the guys over at Mayo over the phone. I plan to call Elephant Racing as well for their input. The guy at Mayo recommended rubber bushings all around and seemed to feel I should stay away from any solid bushings. He also said my Bilstein shocks/struts front and rear should be fine at least to start. I can keep my sway bar that is already on the car.

So with doing new bushings all around, upgrading torsion bars to 21/28 mm (what comes with the Sport Resto 1 package on Elephant), OEM ball joints, bump steer kit, and turbo tie rods it's around $2100 before plating/powder coating.

This is within budget, sound reasonable???

Good plan.
However, if your budget will allow for getting your shocks revalved to match your new setup, you will not regret it.

[Trackrash]

As long as you have the tools and jack stands etc., you should be good to go on DIY.

There are a ton of threads on suspension work here on the forum. Once you get started you can post questions here.

Rubber bushings are the way to go. The new rubber that is used now is much better than what used to be available.

The only decision you need to make is on the torsion bars. I think if you don't go bigger, you will regret it eventually. AHIK. I redid my suspension three times.

Once you decide on torsions it is key to get your shocks re-valved to match.

I would also recommend an adjustable sway bar. It is very frustrating to end up with a car that either under or over steers with no way to easily adjust for it.

The hard part is setting the ride height, corner balance and alignment. Keep us informed to your progress.

[Tidybuoy]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

So I spoke with the guys over at Mayo over the phone. I plan to call Elephant Racing as well for their input. The guy at Mayo recommended rubber bushings all around and seemed to feel I should stay away from any solid bushings. He also said my Bilstein shocks/struts front and rear should be fine at least to start. I can keep my sway bar that is already on the car.

So with doing new bushings all around, upgrading torsion bars to 21/28 mm (what comes with the Sport Resto 1 package on Elephant), OEM ball joints, bump steer kit, and turbo tie rods it's around $2100 before plating/powder coating.

This is within budget, sound reasonable???

Elephant Rubber Bushings are great for a street car and I would even upgrade to "sport" rubber. I would recommend searching YouTube or going direct to the Elephant site as they have excellent tutorial videos. The front bushings are easy to replace in a day (actually 24 hrs with drying time). But, there are some critical details that must be followed. I.e., after installing the control arm bushings, the arm must be set at a specific angle or you will never get it back on the car. All of this is explained on their video.

I notice that you stated your shocks were Sport in the front and HD in the rear. The norm is the reverse (i.e., Sport in the rear, HD up front). In my opinion, Sports are way too harsh for the front, especially on a street driven car. HD are pretty firm.

If you are on a budget, then you can easily tackle sections one-at-a-time. Front control arm bushings, turbo tie rods, shocks, rear shocks, rear swing arm bushings, rear inner control arm bushings, etc.. All of these can be done separately.

[GH85Carrera]

Oh yea, rubber bushings all the way. I went with Bilstien HD shocks.

[matthewb0051]

I can't remember if your year takes the threaded pin that holds the ball joints in BUT I recommend having a second one on hand. When I did front rebuild I stripped or broke one of those and had to then wait several days to get another, which meant completing the job in a week rather than a weekend.

[wrxnofx]

You're in Texas so you probably drive your 911 all year round. Last winter I refreshed my front suspension, and this winter I plan to refresh the rear suspension. The one drawback here is that I got a front end alignment this spring, and will have to get a 4 wheel alignment and corner balance next spring. So there is a bit of redundancy there. But doing the front yourself should give you the confidence to do the rear (at least that's what I've told myself).

[aston@ultrasw.c]

Lots of good info already.

The suspension works as a system. The good thing with elephant is they can help you define the system, even if you break into two or more phases.

Alignment/corner balance can be complicated the first few times, plus you will need tools and equipment. Moreover, you will want to check and adjust after each phase, which can get expensive if you have it done at a shop.

Great DIY project you will learn a lot about the car!

[BFT3.2]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

So I spoke with the guys over at Mayo over the phone. I plan to call Elephant Racing as well for their input. The guy at Mayo recommended rubber bushings all around and seemed to feel I should stay away from any solid bushings. He also said my Bilstein shocks/struts front and rear should be fine at least to start. I can keep my sway bar that is already on the car.

So with doing new bushings all around, upgrading torsion bars to 21/28 mm (what comes with the Sport Resto 1 package on Elephant), OEM ball joints, bump steer kit, and turbo tie rods it's around $2100 before plating/powder coating.

This is within budget, sound reasonable???

Just to confirm a couple things to try and save you money. Do you NEED new ball joints or just want to replace them? "Bump Steer Kit", are you talking the spacers that go above the steering rack/under the cross member or the Bolt-On kit that is $380? Unless your going super low up front the spacers may do just fine for you. At $25 bucks it can't hurt to try them first. When I rebuilt my ENTIRE front and rear, the spacers just barely did the trick and I went pretty low.

As others said, if you go up in torsion bars, revalving the shocks to their spring rate will make a big difference, plus they'll be like new. Win win.

Search for Craig D's diy suspension thread, he like many of us went ALL IN but it will give you a good idea of what to expect if you do it yourself. It's very gratifying but you'll never stop the "while Im in there" syndrome. Trust me.

[Nathans_Dad]

On the ball joints, I'm not sure I need them, I guess I assumed it was something commonly replaced when doing this sort of thing. How would I tell?

As for the bump steer kit, yes I am talking about the $25 one (just the spacer). I will lower the car a bit but certainly nothing crazy. My car currently elicits comments about its "rally height" when I post pics on Pelican, lol.

The patient/victim:

[aoncurly]

For all the work you plan, replace all the rubber components, including the ball joints. You've probably got 35-year old rubber pieces in your suspension, so I would not skimp. Don't forget the camber plate bushings as well. Your car looks like it's got 17-inch wheels. Keep in mind that stiffer torsion bars, shocks and struts, lowering as well as your larger wheels all contribute to making the car ride rougher. Last year, Elephant Racing replaced all my rubber bushings, struts and shocks (Bilstein, matching what was in the car), turbo tie rods, and the $25 Bump Steer kit, and lowered to "Euro' and aligned, and it made a world of difference in ride and handling. They actually raised my car a little per my request (it had been previously lowered) because I had to creep up and down driveways or I'd scrape the tailpipe or the skid guards. They also powder-coated a number of parts and re-plated my spring plates.

Finally, you might also want to talk to Elephant about spacers as well.

[Nathans_Dad]

Yes the wheels are 17 inch reproduction fuchs. Unfortunately my original wheels are lost to time, the car had Cup II knock offs when I bought it.

Is there a thought of sticking with the stock torsion bars then given that I have the 17 inch wheels and will likely lower the car about 1-1.5 inches? My concern is getting it all apart and then back together and THEN deciding I need new torsion bars.

[BFT3.2]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Yes the wheels are 17 inch reproduction fuchs. Unfortunately my original wheels are lost to time, the car had Cup II knock offs when I bought it.

Is there a thought of sticking with the stock torsion bars then given that I have the 17 inch wheels and will likely lower the car about 1-1.5 inches? My concern is getting it all apart and then back together and THEN deciding I need new torsion bars.

And even worse, having the shocks rebuilt/refreshed and then deciding to go up in TB. A little would prob be fine, I jumped from stock on a G50 to 22/30, the revalve made a huge difference. The stock TB are soft by any standards, if you do any kind of "sporty" driving, going up even a little will firm things up a bit. With the rest of your suspension refreshed and working properly, the stiffer bars won't actually feel rougher or jarring. My stock 26 year old, 150K suspension was rougher driving then after I went up to much stiffer springs with refreshed/replace suspension.

[Nathans_Dad]

I talked with Chuck over at ER. He agreed with rubber bushings all around. He said I likely have HDs all around (I can't tell what my struts are, the PO said he thought they were Sport but it sounds like that was likely not correct). He said if I went with the 21/28 mm torsion bar set up (the default set up on their Sport 1 restoration) he would recommend Bilstein Sport shocks in the rear and HD inserts in the front. If I went with 27 mm in the rear then I could keep it HD all around. Since I'm on a budget and new shocks/struts would add another $700 or so to the bill I think I will go with 27 in the rear, keep my HD shocks back there and then if I decide to replace or revalve them down the road I can.

Thanks for all the advice guys, the plan is coming together!