Duracool refridgerant

Hetmann · 01-06-2003, 10:00 AM

Has anyone tried Duracool in their air conditioner?

www.duracoolusa.com

Rot 911 · 01-06-2003, 12:19 PM

I went to their website. I noticed they never tell you what they are using in place of freon only that it is "organic." My guess is that they are using propane which has been discussed several times on this board.

turbo6bar · 01-06-2003, 01:35 PM

I've used Duracool or Enviro-safe on a '95 Mercedes, and so far, the results are good. I would use their products again.

Jurgen

redfox · 01-07-2003, 10:43 AM

I selll Duracool and have for over 7 years. If their was any problem with the product I would have walked away from it long ago. The only problems I have found are that people believe what they hear instead of researching things for themselves. In the last 7 years I have sold over 2 million dollars worth of the product and if there was a problem I would have known of it by now. If people would look into the properties of 134a they would never use it. The MSDS on 134a says that it is not compatible with aluminum, so why do they use it in automotive a/c systems which today are made of primarily aluminum. You tell me. Could it be that they want to shorten the life of your a/c system?

deltajetfixer · deltajetfixer's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by redfox
The MSDS on 134a says that it is not compatible with aluminum, so why do they use it in automotive a/c systems which today are made of primarily aluminum. You tell me. Could it be that they want to shorten the life of your a/c system?

Having just read the MSDS, it says "Powdered Aluminum".

I think we will all agree that there is a WORLD of difference between the Aluminum tubing used in our automobiles and the Powdered Aluminum used in Solid Rocket Propellant.

Powdered Aluminum versus Aluminum Tubing is, to use the cliche, "Comparing Apples to Oranges".

redfox · 01-07-2003, 11:07 AM

Yes, duracool does use propane as one of the components. People have been told to be afraid of it as a refrigerant because propane is flammable. the average automotive system has only about 12 oz in the system. How many people have a 20 lb tank of pure propane mounted under their gas grill and they are not afraid of that ? It amazes me how gulible we have become as a people to believe everthing we are told by the chemical companies. The truth is that all refrigerants are flammable once they are mixed with oil in the a/c system. If you have looked along the side of the interstates and seen a car completely destroyed by fire you will know how flammable 134a is. At first they told us 134a was not flammable, but they have always admitted it was combustible. Combustible means that it does not have to have an ignition source.Heat and pressure will ignite 134a. They say it will ignite at 351 degrees at 5.5 psi. I believe it is lower than that.

redfox · 01-07-2003, 11:16 AM

Ford Motor Company MSDS dated 10/25/93 states. Contact with certain metals [aluminum, magnesiun, zinc, sodium, potassium, and calcium] may cause violent reaction or explosion. What else do we not know about 134a?

island911 · 01-07-2003, 11:35 AM

So, Red. . .to sum-up youre saying; "don't worry about the flamability our propane based product . . .just worry about the violent explosive reaction of the other guys stuff"
. . . is that right?

I'm no fan of 134a; . . .I haven't ever tried your product. . . . it must work, though; I can see you're using it to produce all this SNOW!

emcon5 · emcon5's Garage

Personally I would be less concerned with ~12 OZ of propane than 20 gallons of gasoline.

Tom

redfox · 01-07-2003, 11:57 AM

Yes, ours will burn at 1636 degrees. We add ethyl mercaptan to duracool as a safety factor. When I look for a gasoline leak I don't use a cigarette lighter. 134a does not have a strong odor so you do not know when you have a leak. I have seen ours burn, but it is gone in 1 to 1 1/2 seconds. I use duracool in all of my vehicles and have for 7 years. The first warm day of the year I am the most popular guy in the neighborhood everyone wants their a/c charged. If I believed duracool was dangerous I would not put it in my son's Blazer or my family cars. But, I had nothing to do with the snow.

Moses · 01-07-2003, 12:00 PM

My first thought was, "cool, now you could smell A/C leaks."

It seems kind of silly to have a big discussion about refrigerant safety. I have never heard of anyone being killed by an automotive airconditioning coolant mishap. Then again, the thought of pumping compressed propane through the condensor over my motor makes me feel kind of reckless and wild.

redfox · 01-07-2003, 12:04 PM

If you will look at the cars on the side of the interstate you will see that the gas tanks are intact. A friend who is a fireman expained to me that gas tanks that are full only explode in the movies. I am careful around gasoline, but I am not afraid of it.

Hetmann · 01-07-2003, 12:12 PM

The reason I started this thread is that I have the old york compressor and I have been wanting to avoid the expense of going to the rotary style compressor. My mechanic estimated about $2K to convert with all the new bits needed on my car. My old compressor works (as well as 911 a/c works). I was just looking for an alternative.

redfox · 01-07-2003, 12:27 PM

Since you brought it up I have investigated numerous car fires here in middle Tennessee and I believe that 134a is to blame for at least 27 deaths in this area over the last 3 years. I am not including the deaths in Knoxville, Chattanooga, or Memphis. I know that 134a burns extremely hot and I was told by an instructor for BMW in San Fransisco that 134a burns 12000 degrees and12500 degrees. This made sense because the cars I've looked at will have the a/c pump and other aluminum components melted to the ground. Later I learned from a man in the aircraft industry that components we believe are made of aluminum are actually blends of aluminun and magnesium. Magnesium is fairly hard to ignite, but after it begins to burn you will not put it out.

Harold_89_911 · 01-07-2003, 01:53 PM

I'm sure the stuff works pretty well, but you should still do a search on this BBS. There have been quiet a few discussions on this subject. Some things you should know before are that this material is not DOT approved and therefore illegal to use. Also, you or any next owners cannot bring this car into an A/C shop because you would be contaminating their recovered freon. Ultimately, it is your choice to use what you want, but make sure you make an informed decision and get as many opinions as possible. Good luck...

redfox · 01-07-2003, 03:23 PM

Actually duracool is DOT approved. What you mean is that duracool is not EPA approved. The EPA says that duracool is unacceptable to replace CFC12. They have always admitted that duracool is acceptable to replace 134a. The EPA regulations state that to put duracool into a R12 system you must first recover the R12 into an approved recovery tank. Then you must change the low side fitting to a 134a fitting. Then you may charge the system with duracool. After charging the system you must label the system. Each of our cases comes with 12 labels. None of these regulations apply to the person who does the service to his own car. You mentioned that our refrigerant would contaminate the shops recovery tank of refrigerant. That is true to a certain degree. Since duracool is a hydrocarbon it is not necessary to recover the refrigerant. Truthfully duracool will mix with R12 or 134a without any adverse affects and I have mixed it with R12 for 7 years. However I encourage people to get 134a out of their system completely. People need to read the warnings on the back of cans. On the back of a 134a can it states that it may cause death without warning. This is not an understatment. I feel certain that the vapors from 134a killed one of my customers in Gallatin TN about 4 years ago. He was 23 years old and as strong as an ox. An a/c line broke in his face and later on that day his heart exploded. It was not my intention to bring all of this information out on this forum, but I cannot leave this message board without warning people of the dangers of working with 134a. Also I can name many people that I believe 134a put into the hospital for stroke respiratory failure and heart attack. What people do not realize is that 134a decomposes into is hydrogen flouride. Hydrogen flouride is the #1 liability product in the chemical industry. You are only allowed 6 parts per million in an 8 hour shift. Hydrogen flouride destroys any living tissue. IF you have any questions you can call me toll free at 866 482 8795. I have been researching 134a for many years.

redfox · 01-07-2003, 03:29 PM

What I forgot to mention is that duracool does not have to be recovered. It can be vented to the atmosphere. There are no laws that I know of about venting small amounts of hydrocarbons.

turbo6bar · 01-07-2003, 05:04 PM

Hmm, I believe EPA requires you to recover any refrigerant, but the stuff is propane for cris-sakes. Flatulent Taco Bell customers cause as much damage as the hydrocarbon refrigerants.

Charles, I feel propane/iso-butane mixes are awesome refrigerants. It's a very popular refrigerant in the rest of the world. However, I don't think you should badmouth 134a so much. Yeah, it is pretty lousy stuff, but I think some people might get offended, especially since you sell a competing product. Just my opinion. Not trying to bust your balls.

Jerry, if you do some research, you might be able to do the work yourself. Without investing in a lot of equipment, you can do all the repairs and then have a shop pull a vacuum on the system. Then, you drive the car home and fill it with the hydrocarbon refrigerant. One of the advantages of this stuff is that moisture is not as harmful, whereas moisture can cause problems in freon systems. I wish you luck. Definitely do your research, so you can make the right decision.

Jurgen

redfox · 01-07-2003, 05:53 PM

Have you ever felt compelled to do something that it was the last thing in the world that you ever wanted to do? That is the way that I feel. I don't want to be here writing this information. I would rather be working on a project with my son, like his tree fort. Because of divorce that is not possible. Another man takes care of my website, but is hesitant to deal with controversy. Today my brother gave me a really hard time because I would not do e-mail. I have avoided it for several years and have read many of these posts from so many of these people who do not know what they are dealing with concerning 134a. Today I am finally dealing with this issue. I feel responsible to warn as many people as I can about 134a. I could care less whether they buy duracool or not. This business has cost me practically everthing, but I believe I have done the best I know how to warn people of certain things. If anyone wants to call me and chew me out I will pay for it my toll free number is 866 482 8795.

redfox · 01-07-2003, 06:03 PM

What I forgot to mention is that all CFCs HFCs and HCFCs have to be recovered. HCs do not. I have had my balls busted so many times over the last few years I feel like a neuter.