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ITB bug
I've decided that this winter's project will be installing ITBs on my perfectly good 1988 Carrera, along with an ECU upgrade.
The reasoning is simply aesthetics. The look and sound of the ITB's is simply outstanding. I've convinced myself that it's a good idea, too, should I decide to go more aggressive with cams of something like that in the future :D After quite a bit of research on this board and elsewhere, I've decided to take a path right between DIY and a turnkey kit (actually, time will tell, but it may be closer to a turn key kit that right down the middle). I've selected Al's (X-Faktory) Triumph ITB kit and Andrew's (Rasant) AEM kit. That's all been ordered and I am (impatiently) waiting for a great Christmas present. In the mean time, I've begun the tear down and will post, retro, some of that process. I've learned all I know from this board, so hopefully this will give a little back. As background, I'm starting with my lightly modified 1988 Carrera, which became mine just over 6 years ago. I've done something to it every year, gradually increasing in complexity and the risk of me impairing what has turned into a great investment... 1) Rebuilt the brakes all the way around 2) Installed a Fabspeed euro cat bypass and a modified stock muffler with 1 in, 2 out, debaffled (plus Steve Wong chip) 3) Full suspension refresh with poly bronze, sport bilsteins, turbo tie rods, sway away adjustable spring plates, too many small parts to list - WOW, this had great seat-of-the-pants value (lowered the car too, actually too much but I love it) Here are some glamour shots:http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481141176.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481141176.jpg More soon |
He has a good system and it has demonstrated that it works well. What did it set you back?
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I was also considering ITBs, mostly because the CIS on my 2.7 won't last forever and has abysmal throttle response.
I noticed x-faktory has a complete kit, what's the advantage to the Rasant engine management? |
I'm dreaming of the same setup, looking forward to the updates!
Al is fantastic at providing info, no brainer going with one of his packages. |
You can add me to the list of people contemplating the same thing. Can't wait to hear how it turns out!
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I will do this at some point, ITBs are amazing!
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Looking forward to your feedback on this setup. If I didn't have to deal with emissions here in CA I would do the same. I am almost tempted to swap between the ITB's and the stock motronic setup every 2-years just to pass smog.
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Al's the man. Subscribed.
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I've already disassembled the everything from the airbox down through the intake. I did this all with the engine in situ. I considered dropping it, but there we not much benefit, from my perspective. While contemplating alternatives, I would have had to drop it if I had got the Clewett route (which I still think is a fine direction to go, just not the one I chose).
One advantage I had in this decision was that I had already backdated the heater and removed the AC and it's mounting mess (hoses are still in, for now). http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481165143.jpg This process was quite easy - my notes say it took me just over 3 hours, and I was taking my time, learning and inspecting things as I went. Part of that 3 hours was invested in removing the fan, housing and alternator, since I wanted to dress it up a bit as part of the process. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481165143.jpg As you'll see below, I found that my fan housing's small crack had grown (I know I over tightened the belt for a bit). it probably would have been fine for a while, but why chance it. I ordered a new magnesium casting from CarPoint. So far, that has worked out well. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481165143.jpg I also ordered some Dow 19 magnesium treatment of the fan. My hope was to achieve the bronze color of treated magnesium, but that did not work out well. The worst case of this approach was that the Dow 19 treatment is a paint prep for magnesium, so I just masked the fan and painted it satin black. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481165143.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481165143.jpg Getting to all of the bolts, wires and hoses was a bit of a challenge, but nothing was overly difficult. The only really odd thing is that there is a mounting bracket for the fuel line, one of the wiring harnesses and another hose (can't remember which one) at the very front of the engine and the screw that holds it all in place happens to be a smallish hex head screw. There are pretty much no other hex head screws in the engine bay (save for the barrel nuts on the intake manifold), so it took me a while of get a good view of what it was! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481165143.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481165143.jpg Once everything was out, I commenced to cleaning the fan shroud and the rest of the top of the motor. This is another job that could have been done much more completely and much more easily had I dropped the motor. For now, it's an OK cleanup and I'll save the detailing for another winter. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481165143.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481165143.jpg I also commenced to fabricating an aluminum mounting platform, coming off the top of the breather, for the vacuum manifold I bought and the oil tank breather I bought. For now, I've tapped and bolted the aluminum platform together; it may get welded together before I'm done - not sure. Also, I've modified the oil tank breather with a drain tube and ball valve along with the 1" hose barb for the stock hose from the oil tank. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481165143.jpg This is as far as I've gotten so far - about a week's worth of work most evenings after work. |
Sounds cool. I also have x factory full kit with crank fire ignition. I haven't got around to installing it yet. But a cool winter project.
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You did this right by taking 2 proven kits.
Rasants pricing isn't too bad. Making a kit like this is no small feat. I'm on my 2nd go'round of ITB fabrication using GSXR 750's and I think I'm throwing in the towel again. Too much fab work and machining. |
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I want to thank all of you for the kind words regarding my systems and work....much appreciated........ .........just some general info for those asking questions about the system choices........It's not generally known, but I offer quite a few system configurations......based on price/feature/performance..... employing ECUs ranging from Megasquirt thru AEM Infinity (currently using Rasant. Andrew makes such a nice, high quality harness) but I have also used others, as required....the same goes for the t'bodies/intake system....everything from my own Speed Triple package thru most other off the shelf ITBs on the market. I.E. I listen to the end user...gain an understanding of the needs/wants requirements and then offer several, integrated system options to choose from..........Phil chose a really good system option that will transform his engine............stay tuned. regards, al PS: I definitely don't want to derail Phil's build thread.........so if you have questions for me, please PM me or contact me thru my website.....and in the meantime...i'll be getting Phil's system together and ready for shipping.................nice Christmas present............ |
Slight bias here, since I am slowly putting together a DIY ITB system for my 3.2, but ITBs are, in my opinion, the epitome of a "restomod". Recapture the visual and aural delight of the early 911s, coupled with a modern, mappable and more efficient fueling/ignition system. For me, there is no fart cannon which can reproduce the "hairs on end" feeling you get when you wind up a carbed/ITB'd motor.
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In for the build
You'll definitely enjoy your ITB setup with Al and Andrew's kits. Both great products. |
Besides the obvious, throttle response, aesthetics, etc...how many horses do you expect?
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@Joe Bob - from what I've read, without going to more aggressive cams, I don't expect much HP gain. I think I'll see something at higher RPM, but perhaps a slight drop in mid RPM range. I'll get it on a dyno for final tuning, so we'll see then. I'm hoping to feel some difference in throttle response. I'm open to being convinced differently on the HP front.
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I think I've settled on how I'll mount the oil breather catch can. I'm going to find a shorter air filter for it an install an elbow in the bottom for a hose to fascilitate periodic draining if needed.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481249734.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481249750.jpg |
HP madness
the only dyno results I have were done by the Dzug guys in N.C. They did a before/after with their 3.2SS. This used 964 cams (these are pretty mild), SSIs and sport muffler and still used the stock CIS intake system.
The only change made was to replace the CIS with my EFI/ITB system. Here's the before/after http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481254321.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481254354.jpg That is approximately a 12% increase in HP and a 15% increase in TQ with no other changes except replacing the CIS with EFI/ITB......... video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxXwaL_TdmY&feature=youtu.be No question that the 3.2 system is different from the earlier CIS system....but it does have the single throttle body, unequal length intake runner and air/fuel meter flappajammer in the intake...............in common. regards, al |
I've been a little tied up with work the past few days, but had an opportunity to progress this project a bit this evening.
The Motronic DME has been removed, along with the wiring harness - well, at least the harness is out of the engine compartment. I thought this was going to be more difficult that it ended up being. Taking a page out of a similar project I had read on this forum, from quite a few years ago, I plan on leveraging the connections available at the DME relay for power, ignition switched power and a power lead to the fused fuel pump line. More pictures on that later. The engine compartment is cleaning up nicely, and beginning to look much less cluttered. I did a few other uninstalls (like the rear wiper), in order to remove stuff I don't use and would just add to the clutter of the engine if not needed. Al says the ECU and wiring harness may ship this week - so it won't be long before the tear down stops and the install begins! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481773899.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481773899.jpg It's hard to see in this, but in order to reuse the wiring that went to the DME relay, I need to disentangle that part of the wiring from the main DME wiring, along with the wiring that runs from the DME to the front of the car. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481773899.jpg I'll be able to mount the AEM ECU on the driver side rear passenger footwell, and reuse the factory cutout for the Motronic wiring harness for the Rasant wiring harness. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481773899.jpg A much less cluttered engine compartment http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481773899.jpg And a perfectly good Motronic ECU that will be going up for sale shortly. |
I kept the DME harness intact and used one of the pins for my tach trigger. I filed down a common spade connector, plugged it in, and taped in place.
It's ghetto, but works. Didn't have the heart to strip the harness out. |
I wrestled with the idea of keeping the harness installed; but I've decided this is a one way journey at this point and it just does not serve a purpose. I'm retaining the portions of the harness (installed) that fit my plan - like the fuel pump lead and to your point, the tach lead.
It was a little bit of a leap, but as of now I'm happy I did it. Hopefully more progress and more pictures soon. |
I think that with an off-the-shelf kit like you have, abandoning the vestigial DME components is a great idea to keep everything tidy.
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xmas present?
Phil,
I have a big box... 1 of 2....with your name on it.......and the contents will replace your stock DME nicely. Headed your way today/tomorrow and box #2 will follow mid-next week. regards, al http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1481825026.jpg |
I was surprised with a Sunday delivery of package 1 of 2 from Al!
Unpacked and ready to begin phase 2 - AEM installation. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1482087972.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1482087972.jpg |
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Thanks, |
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Now it's time for the next step. I'm aiming for a late model street hot rod - a frisierterwagen :cool: It took me a while to get over thinking it was an investment (I bought it over six years ago). I enjoy working on it almost as much as I enjoy driving it. By the way, I've pulled the harness this evening. That was a workout! |
Just realized your question was directed to Al - that was not so apparent on my iPad!
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More progress last night on the Porsche hot rod build #frisierterwagen
Motronic ECU is out, along with its wiring harness (from earlier). The AEM ECU is located, but not mounted and its wiring harness has been painfully run. I've added to the mounting stand, so it now supports the vacuum plenum/manifold, the fuel pressure regulator and the MAP sensor - all trial-plumbed to the vacuum manifold. Some, all of these may need to be relocated once I receive and test fit the ITB units. The distributor has also been gutted and retrofitted with an AEM engine position sensor. This takes the place of several other sensors I would have had to mount, otherwise, for crank and cam position data that is fed into the ECU - that's pretty trick. Of course, I won't need the distributor with the new ECU and the Coil on Plug approach I'm taking with this build. More on that later. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1482239785.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1482239785.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1482239785.jpg |
On your bottom picture; if that is a ground wire attached to the heater shroud, perhaps use something on the engine block instead.
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I have a quick question in to Al regarding the Rasant instructions that have the CNT (sometimes labelled CLT) lead - which I am assuming is the coolant temp sensor lead - grounded to the fan shroud. While I want to confirm that, I also would like to understand why / how that works. My assumption is that the AEM ECU requires a figure for this and we are just shorting it to provide a constant value that will be ignored or factored out?? Or is it a thermocouple of some sort? |
It probably has a 2 point slope with low ohms generated equaling a given temp and then a high ohm giving another temp.
It's generating resistance based on temp. |
In the upper left corner of the left chain cover is the thermotime switch on the 3.0 L engine. It provides an oil-temp based temp signal to the CIS which switches the cold start injector off when the oil temp is hot enough. On my 3.0L, I replaced the OEM thermotime switch with one with a different ohm-temp curve and fed it to the ECU as CLT.
Do not know if that threaded boss is on the 3.2 L engine, but it might be. |
Clt
The CLT lug should be installed using one of the bolts that fastens the fiberglass (fan/engine) shroud to the engine case.
Typically these sensors are RTD (Resistance Temp Detector) or a thermistor ( when I use Megasquirt..I make these temp sensors using thermistors and ring lugs) The CLT will change resistance with changing engine temps....so mounting it to the bolt that is directly connected to the engine case provides an engine temp signal to the ECU. This signal is typically used for start up (added fuel +/- based on temp , idle control etc. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1482286918.JPG http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1482286959.JPG Everything you wanted to know and more in the full AEM Infinity Users Manual http://aemelectronics.com/files/instructions/Infinity%20Stand-Alone%20Programmable%20Engine%20Management%20Syste m%20Full%20Manual.pdf regards, al |
Thanks guys - understanding that it is some type of a thermistor makes sense (hard to tell in the Rasant harness - which is very nice by the way). I have it fastened to the fan shroud.
I've read the 300+ pages of the AEM manual and am looking forward to playing with it a bit. Wideband O2 sensor is installed and I plan to be mounting the ECU, fastening the through-body grommet and getting the wiring routed well and tied down underneath, tomorrow. |
Clt
Phil,
It was not clear from your post.......did you move the CLT from the hot air duct to the fiberglass shroud mounting bolt? http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1482288839.jpg |
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It's been a little slower than anticipated over the holidays, parts wise. So I took on a couple of tasks a bit earlier than maybe would be prudent and started another project: plasti-dipping the fuchs.
It took a little digging to find the correct sized thread for the Mahle fuel filter inlet - M14 x 1.5. I removed the pre-existing pipe to compression adapter and installed the new M14x1.5 to AN6 adapter. I also ordered a 90 degree AN6 thread to hose fitting and installed it on the AN6 fuel line and did a test fit. Should be great. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1483111732.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1483111732.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1483111732.jpg I also did some digging on plasti-dipping wheels - tons of great info out there on this. I did some tests and then jumped in and painted one of the rear wheels. Like most things, spending time on the prep really pays off in the end. One word of warning - even the most mild painter's tape will create issues with the base plasti-dip coat. I think I've resolved this by using ~1/4" of tape to wheel for masking, with pre-cut contractor paper masks under that instead of directly taping the whole petal. Still, even with touch up after having tape residue and some pull-up issues with the antique gold plasti-dip, I think the result is quite good - up to about 2 feet for my eyes. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1483111732.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1483111732.jpg |
Looking good. Keep it up
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