Alternative injector results

[stlrj]

Fascinating to see what other message boards are doing when trying out different injectors. Thought we might learn something from this.

Injector upgrade thoughts. - AUSJEEPOFFROAD.COM - AJOR

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Mustang Injectors in an M42 engine


Joe

87 Carrera on multec injectors

[ischmitz]

Do a search here for Sal's posts on the topic. He is probably the most experienced and has taken this to whole other level. Here is one of his later threads on that topic:

New Product: Performance Chip with Matched Injectors for 3.2L Carrera

Ingo

[stlrj]

Originally Posted by ischmitz

Do a search here for Sal's posts on the topic. He is probably the most experienced and has taken this to whole other level. Here is one of his later threads on that topic:

New Product: Performance Chip with Matched Injectors for 3.2L Carrera

Ingo

Looks like a great system. Too bad it won't smog for most applications. Injectors alone like these fellows are doing (including me) would be no problem.


Cheers,

Joe

[DaveMcKenz]

Wait Joe.
That system of Sal's, as opposed to his MAF system, is just new injectors and a new chip. I think that would smog fine.
Dave

[stlrj]

Originally Posted by DaveMcKenz

Wait Joe.
That system of Sal's, as opposed to his MAF system, is just new injectors and a new chip. I think that would smog fine.
Dave

Guess I missed that. However, I don't think these injector swapping cowboys are dropping $800 for a set of injectors and a chip. Even the right injector without a chip will wake up an old Carrera as these guys are finding out on their BMW's, Jeeps and Mustangs.


Joe

[DaveMcKenz]

Well Joe, I guess that's about what I spent. The cost goes to parts in a minor way, and mostly development and testing of the system, as well as support.
Not cheap, but it is a defined product and outcome.
Dave

[AHudson]

I did Sal's chip and injectors in my old 3.2. A real, absolute, non 'fantasy' result of:

Faster starts
Far, far more even idling (and my car was fine before... but 1985 fine)
Better low and mid range response

I did a Euro pre muffler and single out exhaust at the same time (I had a 'rodded' US cat and dual outlet. A little loud for my taste and cosmetically less than I wanted.)

I'd already upgraded to the 87-89 factory chip (28 pin) before. Yet this package went up another level

My car is actually quieter now, but is far improved in driveabilty and performance overall. I'm very enthused. I saved my old injectors and chip in a box. Have zero plans of ever returning to that set up.

[stlrj]

Dave,

Understood.

However, I do find it fascinating how easily and successfully those on other boards are capable of doing things like injector swaps without the benefit of someone like Sal. I'm guessing these boards must be populated by young techies who must know a bit more than we do.

Joe

[ischmitz]

A simple swap can be done by anyone who can read and compare spec sheets. There is no magic involved here or on the other boards. And the closed-loop system will correct for some amount of the difference in these injectors. But what most don't understand is the response time and dynamics of the closed loop system. It is only so good and not designed to do the correction for different injector. Sal did go a step further and modeled the new injector characteristics in the chip so the closed loop system can go back to doing what it's supposed to do (adjust for minor differences and aging) rather than fight a new injector.

Ingo

[JohnJL]

I've had good experience with these guys for cleaning, testing and supplying various injectors:https://www.rceng.com/

[DaveMcKenz]

Regarding Sal's injector + chip package, consider all the guys who have $500 Steve Wong performance chips. I'm sure they are great chips, and are well tailored to his customers' needs. Sal does something similar, plus he programs his performance chip to control modern, easily available fuel injectors. Viewed from that perspective, his package is more than comparable IMHO.
Dave

[stlrj]

Originally Posted by ischmitz47351

A simple swap can be done by anyone who can read and compare spec sheets. There is no magic involved here or on the other boards. And the closed-loop system will correct for some amount of the difference in these injectors. But what most don't understand is the response time and dynamics of the closed loop system. It is only so good and not designed to do the correction for different injector. Sal did go a step further and modeled the new injector characteristics in the chip so the closed loop system can go back to doing what it's supposed to do (adjust for minor differences and aging) rather than fight a new injector.

Ingo

But my point is that nobody on this board, as in other boards, do injector swaps, so we never get any feedback as to which injector work and which ones don't.

Getting back to Sal's awesome MAF system, wouldn't it be great if he were able to integrate a true MAF inside a stock air flow meter housing to pass a visual inspection?

Cheers,
Joe

[tmaull]

So I have Sal's system (although it has not yet been run, for reasons that have nothing to do with Sal) but there's really nothing stopping folks from trying some injector swaps. I believe there is a thread here somewhere on exactly that topic. Let's match some impedances, flow rates, and response times. You first!

[stlrj]

Originally Posted by tmaull

So I have Sal's system (although it has not yet been run, for reasons that have nothing to do with Sal) but there's really nothing stopping folks from trying some injector swaps. I believe there is a thread here somewhere on exactly that topic. Let's match some impedances, flow rates, and response times. You first!

Be my guest. All the impedance and flow rates charts are on the net. Now how about some personal experiences like others have done on the other boards. I suppose that nobody is really interested in injector swaps on this board.

Cheers,

Joe
87 Carrera on Multec injectors

[DaveMcKenz]

Hi Joe,
I have Sal's chip and injector system on my car. Just for fun, I thought I'd install a copy I have of the stock 89 chip, and see how it would run with the 24# Ford injectors that Sal provided. (They are number M-9593-LU24A). Well, they ran very lean. Under tip in and high throttle they were running AFR's in the range of 16-18. I limped home at idle where they were in the 15.5 range. I was happy to reinstall Sal's chip, where the car idled at 14.2, and went to 12.5-13.5 during light to heavy throttle application.
My recollection is that the car ran fine in terms of AFR with the old stock injectors and the 89 chip.
I mention this to illustrate that at least with my replacement injectors, my mostly stock car would run dangerously lean. If I did not have a wide band O2 sensor, I would not have known, because running seemed pretty good. Not quite normal, but not that bad.
Good luck,
Dave

[stlrj]

Hi Dave,

Let me get this right. You put back the stock 89 chip with the 24# Ford injectors and it ran dangerously lean? That's very interesting since the stock Bosch injectors are 23# and nobody seems to have any lean running problem. Makes me very suspicious of how accurate your AFR meter really is. Am I making any sense? The only thing that makes sense to me is that your AFR meter must not have been calibrated, right?

Cheers,

Joe

[DaveMcKenz]

Yeah, Joe. I know. The AFR meter is an AEM LSU 4.9 less than two years old, that does not require free air calibration. I was surprised too. Now I didn't reset my idle mixture, but I didn't think that would make that much of a difference at all speeds. Not sure how to verify my AFR's.
Dave

[stlrj]

Dave, at this point I would not rely on your AFR meter for any meaningful information and you might notice that much of the experimentation with different injectors on the Jeep, BMW and Ford Mustang message boards is done without the benefit of AFR meters. I, personally, have been experimenting with alternative injectors on my 911 for over 35 years and have never had a problem damaging my engine due to lean running conditions. I doubt the BMW posters worry about it either and they seem to be doing quite well with some impressive results.


Cheers,

Joe
87 Carrera on Multec injectors,

[DaveMcKenz]

I would also tend to agree with you, except with Sal's chip, which was mapped for the 24# injectors, the AFR's are essentially perfect. Same gauge, nothing different except the stock chip vs Sal's chip. I would conclude that there is a difference in AFR's for the different chips, without speculating what the absolute values would be. But if I had to guess, I have no specific reason to doubt my gauge.
Thanks,
Dave

[stlrj]

Hi Dave,

You got me thinking. Those 24# Ford injectors were probably high impedance injectors and Sal's chip was mapped for high impedance. That may be the reason the stock chip which is mapped for the stock low impedance injector did not work on the Ford injectors.

Cheers,
Joe