Heat with a 3.6l into a '76 Chassis

[Pork Chops]

To make sure I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, how do you get good air flow through the SSIs without having ghastly pipes in the engine bay and totally ruining the look? Think you'll agree the look is worth preserving but my winters are too cold to ignore heat. Clearly I've left off the top piece of the fan shroud as I'm not sure which way to go and don't even suggest those terrible looking double rabbit ears Patrick are selling...

[Canada Kev]

Originally Posted by Pork Chops

To make sure I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, how do you get good air flow through the SSIs without having ghastly pipes in the engine bay and totally ruining the look? Think you'll agree the look is worth preserving but my winters are too cold to ignore heat. Clearly I've left off the top piece of the fan shroud as I'm not sure which way to go and don't even suggest those terrible looking double rabbit ears Patrick are selling...

SSIs? Kinda small for a 3.6, don't you think? Especially one that looks to rev with the ITBs and COP. Unless you managed to get a set of the new ones with 1.75" pipes.

But to answer your question, I think Rothsport came up with some sort of hidden heat thing. I don't know much about it at all so best to check with Jeff or Scott.

Regardless, fantastic looking engine. I hope it pulls just as good as it looks!

[Pork Chops]

Originally Posted by Canada Kev

SSIs? Kinda small for a 3.6, don't you think? Especially one that looks to rev with the ITBs and COP...

Anyway, fantastic looking engine. I hope it pulls just as good.

Thanks. Re the SSIs it depends a lot on who you talk to. Ninemeister in the UK have no issues using SSIs on hot 3.6s. A little like the whole twin plug debate all depends on fuel quality and where you are in the world. e.g. I've just built a 3.2 SS using 10.5:1 and it's single plugged and no issues. 270hp. Anyhow we'll see how they go once it's on the dyno.

But let's try and keep this thread about how I'm getting my toes warm and my windscreen clear without ruining the look .

[HorstP]

I like the clean and easy look of the carbon fibre pipe. Anything wrong using this?

[Litle brother]

Hi.

You could use the same setup as on the 3.2 Carreras. They have, in addition to the fan in the enginebay, two electric fans/blowers on the bottom of the A-pilars by the footwell. If you use the two in front you will get a pulling effect to assist the enginefan.
Eskild


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[Pork Chops]

Originally Posted by HorstP

I like the clean and easy look of the carbon fibre pipe. Anything wrong using this?

I’m not loving the look of that pipe for my ITB engine. Also you’ll note my SSIs require fan forcing on both sides not just the left hand side like a 964.

[Pork Chops]

Originally Posted by Litle brother

Hi.

You could use the same setup as on the 3.2 Carreras. They have, in addition to the fan in the enginebay, two electric fans/blowers on the bottom of the A-pilars by the footwell. If you use the two in front you will get a pulling effect to assist the enginefan.
Eskild


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I have it on good authority that sucker fans don’t do a great job and expire quickly.

[Tremelune]

It's all trade offs. How clean do you want the engine bay? How much air do you need to move? How much weight and complexity are you willing to add? There are a few options.

What I would like to try is just using the flappers and footwell blowers alone, with no connection to the engine fan or rear blower. Just put a pair of air filters on the inlet of the heat exchangers. This removes all tubing from the engine bay, moves all blower weight right behind the front axles, and still provides plenty of heat and defrost capability. It might even allow a slight increase in engine cooling.

Lovely, lovely motor.

[Tremelune]

Originally Posted by Pork Chops

I have it on good authority that sucker fans don’t do a great job and expire quickly.

I believe most of this is due to a lack of lubrication. The sucker fans seem to expire quickly...after 30 years or so. They certainly move more air than any setup that only uses the engine fan. Their only real downside is noise (and fires if left unfused), but it's not bad on the lowest speed, and you probably wouldn't need to have them on very frequently, even in winter.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Canada Kev

SSIs? Kinda small for a 3.6, don't you think? Especially one that looks to rev with the ITBs and COP. Unless you managed to get a set of the new ones with 1.75" pipes.

But to answer your question, I think Rothsport came up with some sort of hidden heat thing. I don't know much about it at all so best to check with Jeff or Scott.

Regardless, fantastic looking engine. I hope it pulls just as good as it looks!

you lose ~30-40hp at the top of the rev range w/ the 1.5" OD SSI compared to 1.625 to 1.75"

Down low you get slightly better throttle respose

[Ferrino]

Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks heater ductwork in the engine bay looks ****e! I posted a thread about this and in the first post I linked to a pic of the "hidden heat" setup on a 3.6, which you should look into. I believe it's Rothsport's creation and involves modifying the front tins on the side of the flywheel:

Re-Routing Heater Hose

[Tom '74 911]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

What I would like to try is just using the flappers and footwell blowers alone, with no connection to the engine fan or rear blower.

This is exactly what I am running in my '74 911 with a 3.6L engine & fabspeed headers w/heat. The heat boxes on the fabspeed headers are too small to produce much more than lukewarm air, but I think w/SSIs you'd be fine.

I found that the 3.6L engine fan did not produce enough pressure to use an RS type duct alone and the cross over tube to pressurize the right side was a pain to fit in an older chassis. It's a lot of fabricating between a 3.6L engine, earlier engine tin, RS heat tube, cross over heat tube, adapting all that to whatever heat boxes your headers have... I never got that set-up working very well.

I had a 2.7L w/SSIs & backdated heat ducting that worked fantastically. I'd think for heat, SSIs would work great w/a 3.6L if you could get the air moving enough... and footwell blowers are an easy way to do that.

Tom

[HorstP]

Originally Posted by Pork Chops

I’m not loving the look of that pipe for my ITB engine. Also you’ll note my SSIs require fan forcing on both sides not just the left hand side like a 964.

Well can't help if you don't like that pipe...

I have of course crossover tubing to feed both heat exchangers, in my case around both catalytic converters. That plus the 2 footwell blowers works reasonably well for fall temperatures. Nothing for a real winter but who would care?

[uwanna]

I have an '80SC with a 964 3.6 transplant. I also have the carbon fiber
heat pipe, so no blower. i have found a trick to get more heat into the cockpit. All you need to do is slightly crack the sunroof (if you have one)
about an inch or so, it doesn't allow any more cool air in, but the heat comes rolling out with about twice the volume. Try it you'll like it!

[Pork Chops]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

It's all trade offs. How clean do you want the engine bay? How much air do you need to move? How much weight and complexity are you willing to add? There are a few options.

What I would like to try is just using the flappers and footwell blowers alone, with no connection to the engine fan or rear blower. Just put a pair of air filters on the inlet of the heat exchangers. This removes all tubing from the engine bay, moves all blower weight right behind the front axles, and still provides plenty of heat and defrost capability. It might even allow a slight increase in engine cooling.

Lovely, lovely motor.

Good suggestion. I'll get an opinion on the efficacy of footwell blowers from someone who'd know. The other possible even simpler idea is to hook up some flex duct to the heat exchanger inlets (under the tinware) and point the duct forward to catch the air passing under the car as it move. No fan forced heat when stationary but my car isn't going to be doing the rush hour commute if you know what I mean.

[Pork Chops]

Originally Posted by uwanna

I have an '80SC with a 964 3.6 transplant. I also have the carbon fiber
heat pipe, so no blower. i have found a trick to get more heat into the cockpit. All you need to do is slightly crack the sunroof (if you have one)
about an inch or so, it doesn't allow any more cool air in, but the heat comes rolling out with about twice the volume. Try it you'll like it!

Just had the sunroof welded shut . But I like the concept of drawing air through the heat exchangers by creating a low pressure zone in the cabin.

[Pork Chops]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

you lose ~30-40hp at the top of the rev range w/ the 1.5" OD SSI compared to 1.625 to 1.75"

Down low you get slightly better throttle respose

I'll check in with Colin from Ninemeister and get his thoughts on these numbers as I suspect he's going to differ. But if true that's a lot of ponies to let out the back door.

If true, what suggestion do you have for headers with heat exchangers that will not rob the top end like that?

[HorstP]

Originally Posted by Pork Chops

Good suggestion. I'll get an opinion on the efficacy of footwell blowers from someone who'd know. The other possible even simpler idea is to hook up some flex duct to the heat exchanger inlets (under the tinware) and point the duct forward to catch the air passing under the car as it move. No fan forced heat when stationary but my car isn't going to be doing the rush hour commute if you know what I mean.

well you have opinions from someones who know, people who have exactly that set-up running. And don't forget that the footwell blowers are not on their own, the engine fan blows first and foremost. Heat is just dependent on engine rpms, like in the old days

And good look with your idea of catching forward air...

[Pork Chops]

Originally Posted by HorstP

well you have opinions from someones who know, people who have exactly that set-up running. And don't forget that the footwell blowers are not on their own, the engine fan blows first and foremost. Heat is just dependent on engine rpms, like in the old days

And good look with your idea of catching forward air...

The blowers will be totally on their own. A significant point of this thread is that the engine fan will not be assisting. As for catching air under the car, it can't be that hard in the wider scheme of things. Straight off the top of my head I don't know where you'd route the piping but with flex duct there will be a way. Footwell blowers and some assistance from ducted air may be an idea. Or even better given it's a wide body car, why not create an aperture at the front of the rear guards ala 993 Turbo S...or a NACA duct. Good enough for Porsche, good enough for RUF.

[theenico]

What about one or two of those inline boat bilge blower motors? That's what we used to use as a booster in VW bugs. You might be able to hide them in the rear quarters or fenders and plumb them to the inlets of the SSIs.