Need Advice - 23mm Front T bars ...

[vesnyder]

Just installed rear 28mm torsion bars and need to upgrade the stock front t-bars. Can get a good deal on front 23mm!

What do you think of 28 rears and 23 fronts??

[Rick Lee]

I just put 29mm in the rear and 23mm in the front. I only got to drive it home from the shop Fri. night before the big snow hit, so I don't have but about 25 miles in her since then. So far I'd say it's a pretty stiff ride, but I like it.

[vesnyder]

Richard - what struts do you have?

[Rick Lee]

Bilstein Sport all around, turbo tie-rods, Sway Away adj. spring plates and Neatrix bushings.

[Dantilla]

I'll be putting in 23s in my '73 soon, to go along with the 31 rears. The car will be used mostly for autocrossing.

[jpachard]

Dantilla, I'm in the process of putting in 31/rear with custom valved Bilstiens. I will end up with 23/fronts with custom valved Bilstiens as well. Will I need to be visiting my dentist more??? The car is now pretty much sorted for Club Racing.

Cheers, James

[racea911]

I have 30's in the rear and 23's in front with Bilstein Sports in back and Bilstein custom valved inserts in front. The ride is not bad at all, way better than I expected. My car seems to really, REALLY lift the front wheel on corners in autocrosses and on the track. I loosened my front sway bar and it still lifts the wheel too much.

[Wil Ferch]

I believe the question is not overall stiffness ( or..maybe it is!)...but more a question of balance.
Typical upgrades include the 21/27 front-rear pairing...or 22/28. Both of these increase a typical stock car by the same amount front-rear, and maintain the original understeer/oversteer characteristics of stock. Many like to dial-out some of the inherent low-speed understeer, and go a bit fatter in the rear..so 21/28 ( 21/29) ...or even 22/29 ( or 22/30) are used.
For the original poster...23 front with 28 rear not only maintains the original low speed understeer..it will make it even more pronounced.
Yeah, I know...you can "fine tune" with anti-roll bars....but lets get the basic balance close first with TB's. IMHO..this ( 23/28) would work... but would be a tad too much understeer for my tastes.
---Wil Ferch

[skinnerd]

I'm agreeing with most on this post... the 28's on the rear may not be enough to go with the 23's on the front. I autocross/track a lightweight early 911 that has 23's on the front, but 31's on the rear with sport Bilstiens all around. Not knowing what your needs are, I'd say that if you have 28's on the rear, a better combination would be 21's on the front. I've got a similar setup on my other "street" car, and it's quite a bit stiffer than stock (in a good way), but still allows it to be a comfortable daily driver with the occasional excursion to the auto-x pad or track. Just my opinion. Others can chime in as well. Good luck.

[Randy W]

I agree with Doug (as usual). With 28mm in the rear, I would go either 22mm front for track or 21mm front for autocross.

[Chuck Moreland]

ditto. That is too much front bar for a 28 rear.

[Superman]

Golly, I would think that the last thing we need in these cars is more inherent understeer such as that which might result from a 23/28 combo.

Hey Randy, you gonna be at Bremerton Saturday?

[jpachard]

I have had 23/29mm bars on my car for the past year and I have since opted to bump my rears up to 31mm. I find that my car suffers from slow speed understeer( The toe at Watkins Glen, Namerow at Tremblent etc.). Now that the loose nut behind the wheel is more confident, I could really use a bit more oversteer in trail braking situations to help rotate the car a bit better. I will admit that while I was learning, the stiffer bars up front really helped my confidence by having a car that tended to push instead of get loose.

CHeers, James

[89911]

I run 22/30 mainly because I upgraded from 22/28 and didn't see the need to change the fronts. The 28's were too soft for track use. The 22's up front seemed fine and I think had more impact on ride quality then going to 30's in the heavier rear that seems to soak up most of the firmness. I actually intended to go to 23mm in the front but was talked out of it by Craig Watkins from SmartRacing. His opinion was that the force needed to apply rotation on a 23 mm torsion bar was very close to the physical limits of the A-arm itself and you actually get springing in the arms themselves when under strain. His opinion perhaps but you got to respect someone that actually talks you out of a sale.

[skinnerd]

Craig Watkins is incredibily "smart" when it comes to 911 suspensions. I'd believe anything he said concerning suspension set-ups and components. His car is impeccably prepared, and the results speak volumes.

Bottom line, he knows what's he's talking about.

[Jack Olsen]

21/27 for light cars and 22/28 for heavier ones are Bruce Anderson's basic recommendations. But he acknowledges that a lot of track guys like to go much thicker in the back (I opted for 21/30 for my 73).

I've never heard of anyone reversing that ratio, and going thicker in the front. IMO, the only good reason for 23mm bars would be if you had 31's in back, and a fairly heavy car.

[jpachard]

Jack, Alot of guys out East run the 23/31 combo in PCA F class and up. The cars have to meet weight requirements and this setup seems to work the best. We also have some very bumpy tracks where you want to keep the suspension from bottoming. I was at Sebring recently and the 29mm bars in back just weren't cutting the mustard. It felt like I was in a Grand Turino

Cheers, James

[DAVIDM]

Racea911

Not on the size topic, but when adjusting swaybarsaren't you supposed to do the opposite of what you need. If your front is too stiff and the front wheel comes off the ground, aren't you supposed to loosen the rear? As I understand this, a looser rear end will allow greater movement on the rear and transfer less torsion to the front, thereby keeping the front wheel on the ground.

No expert here, and request lots more input on this subject.
David

[Randy W]

A looser rear sway bar will lift the front tire off the ground less, but it is better to have a torsion bar/shock combo in place that allows for sway bars to be adjusted according to driver style/prefernce, not as a band-aid.

Super, I will be there on Saturday if it is not too wet.

[Tinker]

I agree with Randy, Doug and Jack.

I have a 72 with the 23/31 setup. Too much push, especially in an autoX. The understeer could not be dialed out with my current sway bars. It does inspires more confidence on the fast tracks/corners.

I plan on going with a bigger rear sway bar and then try some 22mm fronts.

I think the later/heavier cars generally can use a bit more spring, but a 23 might be too much for them.

Tinker