talk me into a type IV?

[greywuuf]

( or why I should not destroy my 68 912 )

He Folks I have a '68 912 minus the engine. The car came to me with a little front pan problem a 901 tranny and some nice 15" Fuchs wheels. it is also missing the seats and the interior although present ( in a trash bag in the trunk ) is not really useable. Being that I a) In Alaska ( minimal roads)
b) not particularly interested in investing a ton of money on a non rare or special Porsche and c) quite handy in the shop ( to include a couple yearss spent at a Porsche/vw machine shop and owning my own welders tubing benders and lathe ) I have decided that I am going to build some kind of a stripped down lightweight replica RS or maybe just an R. About 3 engine choices have imeadiate candidacy ... I have a dual port 1600 bug motor Pro's
CHEAP and relatively easy to build a fairly quick motor ( 2180 2235 etc ) I am interessted in doing a big bore Type IV but they seem REALY expensive to do right and I also have a nice small light Buick V6 ( 3.0 ) that I would love to turbo charge and install.
I am NOT a hack and I dont intend to just wedge it in there. I can handle te radiator problem with out irevocable damage the Body.

I would Really like to have a '73 RS or at least the look and about the same power. I realize that the SWB issue will be a deterent so I have been taking a closser look at just a plain "R" ( though I will HAVE to have the RS lower valence or dam and the early duckbill tail )

What I am looking for is someone with experience in type IV conversions .... how much money/power am I going to end up with ? what are the pro's to a type IV and why ?

please feel free to talk me into or out of any or all of these options or just express an opinion.

Dan
about to get serious in Alaska

[dimps8]

*sigh*

[James in SA]

Can I suggest taking a look at the Type 4rum on www.shoptalkforums.com - that should persuade you to go the TIV route ...

Cheers

James

'66 912 - with a Type 4 engine ...

[Griznant]

The purists cringe at the T4 conversion, and I can't figure out why. It doesn't change or alter the existing car in any way, and all the mods are completely reversible. It fits in there like it was built for it, and if you are even moderately good with a welder, it can look like a factory job.

I pulled the stock 1600 out of my '69, and stored it away with a bag over it. It's a 75k mile original car, so why risk wrecking the stocker for the sake of having it "original". I wanted more power, more torque, cheaper parts, and better reliability. So, I built a T4.

I am almost ready to stick it in the back of the car, but need to finish the body work and paint first. The total cost to build the engine was about $3500, but this is with NO corners being cut, and a net result of 130-140hp from a 2056cc engine, and a nearly flat torque curve from 2000rpm on up. This cost includes new carbs, exhaust, machine work, custom heads, etc. You could do it for less if you find a good core engine, but building a hotter engine will cost you.

It bolts right in. All you need is the 914 flywheel, and it's a ready made fit. You will need to fabricate a rear mount bar, but this can be done using a bus hanger and modifying the ends to connect to the stock locations. Also, you will need to make sealing tin. This can be made by modifying stock 914 or bus tin. It involves extending some sections to fit the stock seal.

It is NOT a difficult conversion, and if you ever want to build a stock engine for it, it will bolt right back in.

Personally, I'm looking forward to getting it on the road in the next month. It's still a four-cylinder aircooled car, and is basically a much lighter version of a 912E.

Good luck,

G

[James in SA]

Griznant, do you have any hints / tips on making the sealing tin? My car still has the 412 tin, with gaps all around it ...

Cheers

James

[Griznant]

Originally posted by James in SA
Griznant, do you have any hints / tips on making the sealing tin? My car still has the 412 tin, with gaps all around it ...

Cheers

James

Well, I'll tell you that you really shouldn't run it too much without a completely sealed tin setup. You are just sucking hot air back into the engine, and that will drastically shorten your engine life.

However, it's not really all that hard to make some "custom" tin. I started with 914 tin, and then extended some "wings" on each side of it, and then bent that up at 90 degrees to interface with the stock seal. The rear tin (front of car), is the stock 912 tin, with a small amount of bending done to it. Nothing that can't be bent back into place if you were to put it back on a 912 engine. it fits the curve of the body nicely and works well. All that was really involved was welding in some extensions to the stock tin. I used 22 gauge sheet steel, and trial fit it as I went. I then cut clearance holes for my hanger bracket to go through, and that was that. It's not 100% sealed, but it's pretty darn close. The funny thing is that when compared to 912E tin, my design is very similar.

Here is a picture. Please note that this is a dummy engine, the tin is not painted yet, and my alternator shrouding is not in place.



Good luck,

G

[Hoffman912]

ok... well here we go....

do what you want with the car for yourself, not for what someone else wants. its your car, not theirs. if you want a garage queen so let it be. if you want a concours car, knock your self out. if you want a custom, with engine balled out to capacity, fender flares as wide as you can get,. duck tail, whale tail, gt 2 tail, who cares.. go nuts. whatever you do please yourself, not anyone else. if you love concours- go for perfection
if you want a 73 carrera rs then do it.

i come from a vw house. i love porshes tho.. but my god, have you seen any of the completely balled out type 4 engines advertised in hot vws? they have em out to 2.7L i think... compared to standard 2.0's?? i think this can make a very cool and fast t4 912.. lot more hp. on renn list someone showed how they did a super charged t4. imho.. could be well worth it, more bang for the buck so to speak, especially if youre a vw mechanic and can do the work yourself.

pros- its (a t4) alot cheeper to work on and maintane correctly.:

[Griznant]

Jake Raby just got 191hp out of his most recent 2316cc T4. That's designed to be used in a 914 track car and still uses stock cylinders (bored to 96s, but that doesn't decrease engine life). this means it will fit the 912 without ANY body mods. Can you imagine what 191hp in the back of a lightweight 912 would do? You avoid the weight and complexity of a six cylinder, and have more power than you really can use.

Is that incentive enough?

Later,

G

[TonyB]

Griznant,

Nice job on the sheetmetal! I used stock 912E sheetmetal on mine. Do you have a web-page? I would like to link to you or add your pics to a page on my site if you wish. Have you changed the gears in your transmission to match? I just did mine and what a difference!

Greywuuf,

Check my link for details and pics. I describe HOW to put the engine in the car, not the build of the engine itself. I built my 2.0 pretty much to stock and will up the power after I finish everything else. Right now, it's a daily driver and I love it!

[SteveStromberg]

Rick Conemac can Supply you with the WBX Crank , His # is 818 340 5855

[Griznant]

Originally posted by TonyB
Griznant,

Nice job on the sheetmetal! I used stock 912E sheetmetal on mine. Do you have a web-page? I would like to link to you or add your pics to a page on my site if you wish. Have you changed the gears in your transmission to match? I just did mine and what a difference!

I will put some pictures up once the whole engine is together in in the car (very soon). I'm painting the car right now so I haven't put the drivetrain back in. The tin looks much better now that the welds are finished off and it's painted.

I'm running the stock gears for now (4-speed car), and already figure that I'm going to turn a bit more rpm than I would like at 75-80mph. I have a 914 trans that I'm going to pirate the gear cluster out of and get a good cruising 5th, along with closer gear spacing. I'm not real crazy about the dog-leg 1st gear, but I guess I'll learn to live with it.

I used to have a website, but took it down. Now I share some picture space on a friend's server but you can look at some of the stuff here:

http://www.qtm.net/~persot/912

Thanks,

G

[TonyB]

Thanks Griznant. Can I post your pics on a page on my site, giving you full credit of course....

[Griznant]

Hey, sure, that's cool with me. If you think they're worth it, then you're free to do what you want with them.

I plan to put a decent site together once I get this thing done. I have a ton of pictures yet to load up now that I have the car fully stripped, the bodywork is almost done, the engine is together, and the exhaust is done. Hopefully I'll have some time in the near future to get those up there.

I want people to understand that this conversion could be a good option for keeping more 912s on the road, keeping the spirit of the car alive (aircooled flat four), and have even more power than they thought. PLUS, it's all reversible!

Thanks,

Grant

[TonyB]

Griznant,

That's the same reason I did my conversion. It's STILL a 912, Porsche did it in 76, it's reversible, more power, less maintenance, yada.. yada..

If you are planning on putting up a site, I can wait and link to you when you get it done.

You should have seen the 912 2.0 Bus motor conversion I saw at a show/swap meet. This guy walks over to me and looks in my engine bay and says, "hey, you did what I did!". So, I follow him over to his 912 and peek in his engine bay. He had no sheetmetal between the fan shroud and the rear panel. The Bus oil filler was dangling in this area. No sheetmetal at all beyond the heads, nothing! He had Weber 40's on it with major leaks and the air boxes weren't even connected. They were just flopping in the breeze. I asked him if it ran hot and he said no. When I looked in the front of the car, no temp guage was to be found. I guess ignorance is bliss!

I can say one thing for sure about putting a T4 into a 912 with the pancake cooling system. The fan will cavitate at just over 4,200 rpms. That's about 75 mph on a stock geared 5 spd. I saw temps of 240 and had to pull over and let the car cool down while at idle. Once I changed my gears, oil temp is 190. That's running 85-90 down the freeway for 40 miles on 82 degree days. Much better!