would you put a 911 engine in it?

[herman maire]

I just bought a 66 912 with the 356 style engine. I think the engine is from 67 or something, I still have to look it over . It has dual draft webbers .

The last thing I needed was another project but I really like the SWB look .

The car is completely dismantled and the complete body is getting media blasted,

Are these 912 engines any fun to drive VS a nice 2.7L 911 engine with carbs?

As always, thanks.

[JT912]

Fun to drive? Hell yes! Anything like a 2.7L? Hell no! Find someone with a properly tuned 912 and see if they'll take you for a ride in some twisties. I bet you'll be smiling when you are done.

[herman maire]

Are the motors durable if you blast around/track near to red line often?

I hear a lot of negatives about the crankshafts . I am not about to start buying $2000 aftermarket crankshafts .

Thanks

[JT912]

There is a good competion section over at the 912bbs where you might find more input as to your running conditions and durability. Check out www.912bbs.org

[Jaems]

The problem of putting a 911 in a early SWB 912 will be:

One - the balance will be off do to a heavier engine in the rear. 911 engine will be tail happy in the corners and not very for given if you make a mistake. Where as the 912 is more balance and more forgiven to mistakes.

Two - the 2.0L engine will fit a lot easier than the LWB engines. LWB cars are two inches longer for better balance with a the heavier 911 engines. The transaxles are also longer to accommodate the LWB cars.

Three - the SWB transaxles 901 series will not take the torque of the 2.2, 2.4, 2.7 and etc. engines.

However, if you check with the 911 "R". they may have figured out how to install those type of engines in a SWB car.

Also one other thing. Media blasting is not the best thing for these early cars. Most of the time there is media left in places that you will find out about later when the new rust starts to appear. The media will absorb moisture and start to rust.

[herman maire]

thanks for the replys ,

jt912, I took a look at the website in the link .... cool website. I tried to register but it seems to take a while to get a new account activated .

jaems, your absolutely right about the blasting media getting everywhere..... I would not be doing this if my rockers were not removed ready to be replaced . All the cavities will be blown with high pressure air. Having just cut up a 911 targa for repair panels for my early cars, theres not many other spots for blasting media to hide . I have done this before and the rough surface of the blasting media gives a incredibly grippy surface for a high quality epoxy primer...... it really, really seals the metal.

Thanks again for the replys.... lots to consider at this point. I may just run the boxer 4 and see how I like it.... I can always swap motors later .

[1-ev.com]

Originally Posted by Jaems

Media blasting is not the best thing for these early cars. Most of the time there is media left in places that you will find out about later when the new rust starts to appear. The media will absorb moisture and start to rust.

What you guys think about Soda blasting.

Look at Pics 15 and 16 here www.theblastmasters.com/companyphotos

I been told you can rinse it off later.


My 2c.
-Youri

[Grady Clay]

herman maire,

To answer your question properly you need to look at the car, what your intentions are, where you live and how you intend to use it.

There is a place in history and enjoyment with a nicely restored and prepped 912.
In 1976, I built a ‘67 912 soft-window Targa for my dad to replace his original Factory Delivery ’66 912 sunroof coupe.
The ’67 ended up quite a car – a 911S with a 1720 cc 4-cylinder.
By the time he was ready for another Porsche (~1980), I had a very nice ‘77S coupe for him with a ‘sleeper’ CIS 3.4 (74.4x98).

I recommend you look at the many SWB ‘rejuvenations’ done (and in process), both 4-cylinder and 6-cylinder.
If you are concerned with originality, keep the 616 engine.
If you are looking for performance in the High Rockies (Banff NP), a 2.7RS-like engine is the way to go.

I’ll play ‘devil’s advocate’ (on a 912 Forum) and give details (some from my dad’s ’67 912).

With the chassis completely apart, you have the opportunity to rebuild it much stronger and far less prone to rust.
The difficulty with rust is that none of the inner panels were coated with anything – it is still rusting quietly as we speak.
To stem the rust, you must coat (primer, paint and ‘rust-proofing’ wax) every internal surface and seam.
The internal cavities also need ventilation so they don’t accumulate condensation.

Some of the more important ‘improvements’ are the LWB front suspension and steering, brakes, seat and seatbelt mounting, headlight relays, window regulator reliability and more.
The later heated rear window directly interchanges.
There isn’t a system in the car that won’t respond positively to maintenance rebuild and/or updating.

An important accomplishment can be to have the car lighter weight (some SWB 911s break the 2000# point).

With a maintenance rebuild and some updates, your 901/902 transmission will handle a 2687 cc 911S engine (~210 hp) just fine.
The type 911 transmission (’70-’71) is stronger in a few areas.

There is no mystery to a 2.7RS-like engine.
This is probably the most replicated Porsche engine ever with both MFI and carbureted versions.
It is suited for daily street use and likes ‘stretching it’s legs’ when warm.
Building one can be a DIY project with a few operations contracted to expert vendors.
These can be 100K++ engines with regular full power and 7300 rpm use.

One undeniable difference between a 912 and a 911 that you will come to curse or appreciate are heaters.

If you decide to maintain the 912 engine, source some “European heaters”.
A few of the ‘killers’ of the 616 engine are lack of oil pressure on cornering (get an Accusump), heat (have an external oil cooler and improved fan) and too high rpm (keep control of your right foot).



So … do your ‘due diligence’ research.
Listen to all points of views.
Make your car how you want it and enjoy.

Best,
Grady

[herman maire]

Grady,

thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.... I always enjoy reading you replys.

Did you ever have any trouble with your dads 616 engines?

The engine I was thinking of is a 3.0L but I am concerned with the handling..... maybe its a bit to heavy. I posted a new tread in the 911 forums to maybe get a few more replys to see what a 3.0L is like in a SWB car 3.0L in a SWB car ...... How does it handle??

originality is not really a concern, it would be if this was a long hood "S". With this project, my vision is a almost 100% stock looking 1966 long hood with a good amount of reliable HP and the 3.0L comes to mind

As of now, I am leaning towards giving the 3.0l a shot .

[Jaems]

There will be at least a 2 inch difference in length between the 902/1 and the 915 transaxles. The CV's will also be 2 inches farther and will have different flanges. Like I said earlier the 902/1 transaxle will not take the torque - for long.

You might like to talk to the "R" group about putting a 3.0L in a SWB car. They will know all the pitfalls that this will in tale. It would of been better to get a 69 LWB 912 for your 3.0L engine. It would have better balance for the extra weight.

[JT912]

or better yet a '69 911 then your engine mount and oil tank holes are existing.

[herman maire]

Just a update, I purchased a 3.0l engine so this is going to happen.

A few other items I have gathered-
-Koni adjustable front struts with "S" aluminum callipers.
-Koni rear shocks
-911 oil tank
-911 engine mounts

I will slowly gather items as I go.... the chassis is being completely restored.

I intend to use the 901 transmission, from what I have read it should be fine if not abused in 1st gear ect..


Any thoughts on torsion bar sizes ?

Thanks again for the replys.

[Matt Monson]

You might want to consider upgrading the side cover on the gearbox. That will help prevent ring gear deflection and make your ring and pinion set survive longer at the higher power levels.

[dustinhu]

Herman, let me know what you are doing with the 912 motor. I want to get one to put in my '68 912.

Thanks
Dustin

[WFBowen]

Herman:
Sounds like you're on your way to building a really fun car. I've seen several SWB cars with SC motors over the years and they seem to really be a blast to drive. As for torsion bars, maybe just go with the factory SWB "S" configuration. By your description of what you're doing with this car, I doubt that you're a novice to Porsches.
Also, I've read a lot about the downfalls of big motor SWB cars & I'll throw out a personal opinion to balance the argument. Certainly the 912's are better balanced and, for some, the SWB 911 can be at the very least challanging to keep pointed in the right direction. But keep in mind that:
1. The SWB 911 is the car that Porsche originally developed to stake their future on and, as designed, is a beautiful example of engineering. I was around the SCCA world in the mid sixties and, in the hands of a skilled driver, that rear weight bias could be utilized to great advantage (the classic "throw-and-catch" technique.) Add to that, the greater available power of the six allowed one to throttle out of some critical situations - (using the 901 gearbox which is pretty strong if not abused.)
2. Also, when these car were seriously raced in the 60's, the 2.0 911(C Production) would consistently lap faster than any 912 I can remember - balance or no balance and IIRC the 912 raced in EP and some of them ran in a sedan class.

I chose a 912 as a daily driver because it's a very simple motor to maintain and, to my mind, is a continuation of the 356 small-bore philosophy. But, if i had the time and garage space, I'd definitely build something like your hotrod project.
Please keep updating your progress.
Bill

[herman maire]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

You might want to consider upgrading the side cover on the gearbox. That will help prevent ring gear deflection and make your ring and pinion set survive longer at the higher power levels.

Thanks for mentioning that, I will for sure look into that. I think Wevo have something available for the 901.

Originally Posted by dustinhu

Herman, let me know what you are doing with the 912 motor. I want to get one to put in my '68 912.


Thanks
Dustin

Dustin, the engine is already gone to another 912 needing a engine . sorry

Originally Posted by WFBowen

Herman:
Sounds like you're on your way to building a really fun car. I've seen several SWB cars with SC motors over the years and they seem to really be a blast to drive. As for torsion bars, maybe just go with the factory SWB "S" configuration. By your description of what you're doing with this car, I doubt that you're a novice to Porsches.
Also, I've read a lot about the downfalls of big motor SWB cars & I'll throw out a personal opinion to balance the argument. Certainly the 912's are better balanced and, for some, the SWB 911 can be at the very least challanging to keep pointed in the right direction. But keep in mind that:
1. The SWB 911 is the car that Porsche originally developed to stake their future on and, as designed, is a beautiful example of engineering. I was around the SCCA world in the mid sixties and, in the hands of a skilled driver, that rear weight bias could be utilized to great advantage (the classic "throw-and-catch" technique.) Add to that, the greater available power of the six allowed one to throttle out of some critical situations - (using the 901 gearbox which is pretty strong if not abused.)
2. Also, when these car were seriously raced in the 60's, the 2.0 911(C Production) would consistently lap faster than any 912 I can remember - balance or no balance and IIRC the 912 raced in EP and some of them ran in a sedan class.

I chose a 912 as a daily driver because it's a very simple motor to maintain and, to my mind, is a continuation of the 356 small-bore philosophy. But, if i had the time and garage space, I'd definitely build something like your hotrod project.
Please keep updating your progress.
Bill

Bill,

Thanks for sharing . If my 912 was a perfect original car, I would be keeping it that way and just enjoying it . This car that I am working on, I am pretty much saving it from the crusher so I dont feel bad about turning it into a project .

I am glad to hear that the 901 is pretty strong.

Unfortunately, this will be a slow project.... I would like to have it on the road by the spring .

Thanks again for all the replys